4 ms·

On the surface it seems like such a simple thing to make - a box on some metal wheels. Why is it such an accomplishment to make "good rolling stock?"

pjc50 7y ago
A house is a simple thing, being a wooden or brick box? A car is also a box on wheels? A rocket is just a metal cylinder? </sarcasm> - could we at least try to think or research before posting the middlebrow dismissal? A passenger rail car is more like a house or very large caravan. In addition to all the engineering below the body (wheels, suspension, vacuum brakes, coupling), you've got a large superstructure with windows, plumbing, electrics, HVAC, power-operated doors, and design considerations of accesability and crash safety as well as comfort. They generally need a special site to be built on (unless you want to ship them by road, which can be done but is inconvenient) and some heavy capital equipment. The UK built bus-on-rail conversions to cover a period of national poverty; the notorious "Pacers". They were uncomfortable and unpopular.
- foobarian 7y ago
  A house IS a simple thing - it is not the case that you only have a few companies in the world that make a "good one." To me the thing that separates rail from cars or other vehicles is that they have the advantage of having railroads, and so I would think that they can make additional assumptions that cars can't. They don't need the steering column for example, or make too much fuss about differentials. And yet, the fact that cars are commoditized, but there are only a few good rolling stock companies in the whole world makes me wonder what I am missing. Maybe the demand/volume is just so low that there is no opportunity to commoditize or create a huge market.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    There is limited demand. Rail cars are expected to last for 30 years (with a couple significant refurbishments), and carry hundreds of people at a time over limited routes. Road cars last about 12 years (average as I recall), and carry only a couple people just about anywhere. The result of this is society buys a lot more road cars than rail cars, and so there is a lot more scale and a lot more companies making them.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  I was in a train in the UK they other day that I swear had a big diesel engine and a clutch and my first thought was that someone had converted a coach to a train. I thought all trains that were diesels would be diesel electric but apparently that was wrong.
Merrill 7y ago
Depending on the country, there are significant requirements on the "box" regarding how much it compresses end-to-end in case of accidents. "Crush" requirements are in the range of hundreds of thousands of pounds of force, IIRC. They are especially high for passenger cars operating on the same tracks as freight.
bluGill 7y ago
It isn't much an accomplishment, but it is required. When you have 50 year old wore out cars (I have no idea how old the cars in question are), or a newer car but it turns out the design has a flaw you have a problem. There are only a few companies making rolling stock. Some of them have better designs than others. All have only so much space in their factories to produce more. All have looked at demand to in some way and made decisions about what sort of capacity to build cars they should invest in. (I don't know which have done a good job here). There are a bunch of different standards that rolling stock has to meet - wheels, safety: not all factories can deliver cars that will work, but they have several choices that will work. Sometimes local laws limit what factories you can buy from (buy American has increased costs in the US - but that obviously doesn't apply here) It comes down to this: they order some rail stock today and in 5 years have some cars. They might be able to get the cars sooner by selecting a different factory to order from (cost and quality are both in play here).
cardiffspaceman 7y ago
The normal size of this box is so big, it can carry several autos. When you put passengers inside, there are various required features, such as anti-climb mechanisms [1] to keep the casualties down in a crash. Selling boxes to the organizations that buy them is different depending on the box. It seems to me that the process for rail cars is much longer and involves more public meetings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_15227 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_15227 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescoping_(rail_cars) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescoping_(rail_cars)
- bluGill 7y ago
  The process generally is complex, but it need not be. The anti-climb is pretty much universal and so all cars have it, as are most other safety features. You could save a lot of money by ordering what someone else already did (changing only the paint scheme). Often though someone makes what seems like minor changes to requirements, but the end result is engineers have to redesign large parts of the car and that drives up price - both because of the redesign and all the new jigs need to be made just for your car that will never be reused.

pjc50 7y ago

A house is a simple thing, being a wooden or brick box? A car is also a box on wheels? A rocket is just a metal cylinder? </sarcasm> - could we at least try to think or research before posting the middlebrow dismissal? A passenger rail car is more like a house or very large caravan. In addition to all the engineering below the body (wheels, suspension, vacuum brakes, coupling), you've got a large superstructure with windows, plumbing, electrics, HVAC, power-operated doors, and design considerations of accesability and crash safety as well as comfort. They generally need a special site to be built on (unless you want to ship them by road, which can be done but is inconvenient) and some heavy capital equipment. The UK built bus-on-rail conversions to cover a period of national poverty; the notorious "Pacers". They were uncomfortable and unpopular.

foobarian 7y ago
A house IS a simple thing - it is not the case that you only have a few companies in the world that make a "good one." To me the thing that separates rail from cars or other vehicles is that they have the advantage of having railroads, and so I would think that they can make additional assumptions that cars can't. They don't need the steering column for example, or make too much fuss about differentials. And yet, the fact that cars are commoditized, but there are only a few good rolling stock companies in the whole world makes me wonder what I am missing. Maybe the demand/volume is just so low that there is no opportunity to commoditize or create a huge market.
- bluGill 7y ago
  There is limited demand. Rail cars are expected to last for 30 years (with a couple significant refurbishments), and carry hundreds of people at a time over limited routes. Road cars last about 12 years (average as I recall), and carry only a couple people just about anywhere. The result of this is society buys a lot more road cars than rail cars, and so there is a lot more scale and a lot more companies making them.
jacquesm 7y ago
I was in a train in the UK they other day that I swear had a big diesel engine and a clutch and my first thought was that someone had converted a coach to a train. I thought all trains that were diesels would be diesel electric but apparently that was wrong.

Merrill 7y ago

Depending on the country, there are significant requirements on the "box" regarding how much it compresses end-to-end in case of accidents. "Crush" requirements are in the range of hundreds of thousands of pounds of force, IIRC. They are especially high for passenger cars operating on the same tracks as freight.

bluGill 7y ago

It isn't much an accomplishment, but it is required. When you have 50 year old wore out cars (I have no idea how old the cars in question are), or a newer car but it turns out the design has a flaw you have a problem. There are only a few companies making rolling stock. Some of them have better designs than others. All have only so much space in their factories to produce more. All have looked at demand to in some way and made decisions about what sort of capacity to build cars they should invest in. (I don't know which have done a good job here). There are a bunch of different standards that rolling stock has to meet - wheels, safety: not all factories can deliver cars that will work, but they have several choices that will work. Sometimes local laws limit what factories you can buy from (buy American has increased costs in the US - but that obviously doesn't apply here) It comes down to this: they order some rail stock today and in 5 years have some cars. They might be able to get the cars sooner by selecting a different factory to order from (cost and quality are both in play here).

cardiffspaceman 7y ago

The normal size of this box is so big, it can carry several autos. When you put passengers inside, there are various required features, such as anti-climb mechanisms [1] to keep the casualties down in a crash. Selling boxes to the organizations that buy them is different depending on the box. It seems to me that the process for rail cars is much longer and involves more public meetings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_15227 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_15227 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescoping_(rail_cars) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescoping_(rail_cars)

bluGill 7y ago
The process generally is complex, but it need not be. The anti-climb is pretty much universal and so all cars have it, as are most other safety features. You could save a lot of money by ordering what someone else already did (changing only the paint scheme). Often though someone makes what seems like minor changes to requirements, but the end result is engineers have to redesign large parts of the car and that drives up price - both because of the redesign and all the new jigs need to be made just for your car that will never be reused.