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OP here. Given that I posted this, I think I that I should share my opinion. I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so hopelesly biased, I fear. I wa

OP here. Given that I posted this, I think I that I should share my opinion. I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so hopelesly biased, I fear. I want to keep this short and cut to what I believe is the essence of the problem and how I think that all this will play out. Given the power assymetry, hugely favourable to Spain, the only chance for Catalonian independence is to get external support that will twist Spain's arm. Here is where they are concentrating their efforts. They are trying this on many fronts, some legal (EU court in Strasbourg), but mostly by trying to keep the conflict in the front page of international media. This has worked partially (by damaging Spain's image abroad), but are still very far from their goals (UN resolution against Spain, EU warning, a big state or leader putting this on their agenda). Part of this is to commit illegal but not quite criminal acts, followed by an outcry and demonstrations when they invariably get banned by Spain. This "digital republic" is just one of many such acts. Spain is actually reacting with enormous restraint, given the propaganda disaster of past mistakes like the riot police during the illegal referendum. Unless forced by the international community, Spain will never allow Catalonian independence, no matter how bad the internal situation, in my opinion. This is a matter of national interest for Spain, an existential threat, because it is one of the largest and richest regions, and because others would follow (at least the Basques), and Spain would just cease to exist. Democracy is crucial, but, as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic. This is not a matter of human rights, or Spain being a fascist state, franquist, or a dictatorship. Spain has never been accused by other EU countries of being undemocratic or not respecting human rights (or, at least, not worse than other nations like France or USA).

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kiliancs 7y ago
Thanks for sharing your opinion and being open about your bias and reasoning. Thanks also for pointing out the power asymmetry, as this seems to be often left out from the equation and is IMHO a key point. I think we can analyze the same problem from many different points of view and depth, but ultimately for me it boils down to it being immoral for some groups of people to prevent other groups of people from attaining a status of equal --it implies superiority. If the moral solution (embracing self-determination) poses an existential threat to a country (Spain in this case), I think the sensible thing to do is to explore possible solutions such as a gradual application of this right that allows everyone to adjust. Anything else is just asserting the immoral superiority of a group of people over another, and if this legitimized as an existential need, this only strengthens the argument that independence is also an existential need. Because both sides could pull the argument of of "as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic" to justify any mains of attaining their goal. I think this is a very dangerous and destructive point of view. And to clarify, I didn't mean to pontify about what's moral and what isn't. This is just my point of view, though I do think it's fair.
- charlysl 7y ago
  Thank you for your polite reply. You have a point, although I disagree that the pro-independence politians are acting morally. Spain, at pains to act within the bounds of legality, is held to much higher moral standards, and here is another assymetry, this one favourable to and constantly exploited by the independentists, who seem free from the constraints of legality. What is shown in the international media is just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn't show the independentists' feeling of superiority (rather than equality). I have read the pro-independence media, and their reader's comments, in Catalonian, to get an unfiltered view of their thinking, and the difference with what they project internationally is glaring. The Catalonian constitution, approved by their parliament is spite of its illegality, which they plan to adopt in the case of independence, has severe restrictions on press freedom and judiciary independence, far less democratic than the current situation in Catalonia. They brand Spaniards from other regions living and working in Catalonia as "inmigrants"; Catalonians in other regions of Spain are treated there as equals. Maybe I am too cynical and influenced by realpolitik, but I am afraid that real world politics works mostly according to interests (and power; rules are made according to these) rather than just morals (although these too are a factor when it comes to interests, as Machiavello said it is very important to hold the moral high ground). I find this approach unpleasant, but also think that it allows one to better understand how the world actually works, rather than how it should work (I am powerless to change the world, but at least I can try to understand it). Democracy is often used by western governments and groups as a very powerful emotional propaganda tool (for the first time AFIK, in the first world war against the kaiser). I remember when Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded in the name of democracy. The real motives were never stated in the open, they never are, what matters is to create a narrative that the masses will buy; it is only possible to understand what happens by taking a global view and considering multiple factors (of course I don't claim that I do really understand, I just mistrust whatever is claimed by the media of both sides and suspect the real motives are often hidden). Is my view destructive? What if allowing a referendum results in the collapse of Spanish cohesion, very likely. Wouldn't the resulting turmoil be more destructive that the status quo (which I admit is far from ideal, but IMHO the lesser evil)? This is what I mean by absolutes, I believe that one should approach complicated problems globally, rather than by optimizing for just for one local property, even if it's a noble one such as democracy or self-determination. Look at the Arab Spring, there are many lessons here. I like Bertrand Russell's take on liberalism: a difficult balance between maximizing personal freedom while preserving social cohesion.
repolfx 7y ago
Spain would just cease to exist. Spain will cease to exist anyway given the trajectory of the EU. I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. They seem to want to immediately turn around and (re)join the EU, which is rapidly taking over more and more areas of governmental policy. EU forbids different regions from being more "competitive" than others (see their demands to the UK) and implements large wealth transfers from richer to poorer areas, so, the rest of Spain would end up being subsidised by Catalonia still. If you care about Spain existing you should be campaigning for Spain to leave the EU, rather than being distracted by whether Catalonia does or does not possess whatever trivialities the EU leaves behind to member states as it grows.
- yiyus 7y ago
  > I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. I never cared, but I do care about the image they are projecting of my country (specially as someone living abroad). Moreover, they are doing great getting the worse of everyone. I never liked nationalism (including Spanish nationalism) and now it's worse than ever. And I do not like anti-riot police, and I do not want my government to close web sites, and I do not like to see Barcelona burning, and I do not like the hate I see in the eyes of the independentists when they talk about Spain, neither I like the hate I see in the eyes of some people when they talk about the Catalan independentists or even about Catalonia. And I think I could accept all this if it was for a good reason, but I think it is just stupid nonsense (did we learn nothing from Brexit?). We should be moving forward towards some kind of United States of Europe, and worrying about doing something with all these people from Africa who keep coming here, not about breaking apart and stupid flags. I get many questions from friends from all over the world, and I do not know how to answer them, I just feel shame. That's why I care. If tomorrow the Spanish state disappears and we just become one big European country, I would not mind at all. By the way, you are right about what would happen if an independent Catalonia joint the EU. As a wealthy region, they would have to pay. However, why would the EU allow to join a wealthy country who just decided to break their own laws in order to not subsidize poorer regions?
  - oska 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kiliancs 7y ago

Thanks for sharing your opinion and being open about your bias and reasoning. Thanks also for pointing out the power asymmetry, as this seems to be often left out from the equation and is IMHO a key point. I think we can analyze the same problem from many different points of view and depth, but ultimately for me it boils down to it being immoral for some groups of people to prevent other groups of people from attaining a status of equal --it implies superiority. If the moral solution (embracing self-determination) poses an existential threat to a country (Spain in this case), I think the sensible thing to do is to explore possible solutions such as a gradual application of this right that allows everyone to adjust. Anything else is just asserting the immoral superiority of a group of people over another, and if this legitimized as an existential need, this only strengthens the argument that independence is also an existential need. Because both sides could pull the argument of of "as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic" to justify any mains of attaining their goal. I think this is a very dangerous and destructive point of view. And to clarify, I didn't mean to pontify about what's moral and what isn't. This is just my point of view, though I do think it's fair.

charlysl 7y ago
Thank you for your polite reply. You have a point, although I disagree that the pro-independence politians are acting morally. Spain, at pains to act within the bounds of legality, is held to much higher moral standards, and here is another assymetry, this one favourable to and constantly exploited by the independentists, who seem free from the constraints of legality. What is shown in the international media is just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn't show the independentists' feeling of superiority (rather than equality). I have read the pro-independence media, and their reader's comments, in Catalonian, to get an unfiltered view of their thinking, and the difference with what they project internationally is glaring. The Catalonian constitution, approved by their parliament is spite of its illegality, which they plan to adopt in the case of independence, has severe restrictions on press freedom and judiciary independence, far less democratic than the current situation in Catalonia. They brand Spaniards from other regions living and working in Catalonia as "inmigrants"; Catalonians in other regions of Spain are treated there as equals. Maybe I am too cynical and influenced by realpolitik, but I am afraid that real world politics works mostly according to interests (and power; rules are made according to these) rather than just morals (although these too are a factor when it comes to interests, as Machiavello said it is very important to hold the moral high ground). I find this approach unpleasant, but also think that it allows one to better understand how the world actually works, rather than how it should work (I am powerless to change the world, but at least I can try to understand it). Democracy is often used by western governments and groups as a very powerful emotional propaganda tool (for the first time AFIK, in the first world war against the kaiser). I remember when Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded in the name of democracy. The real motives were never stated in the open, they never are, what matters is to create a narrative that the masses will buy; it is only possible to understand what happens by taking a global view and considering multiple factors (of course I don't claim that I do really understand, I just mistrust whatever is claimed by the media of both sides and suspect the real motives are often hidden). Is my view destructive? What if allowing a referendum results in the collapse of Spanish cohesion, very likely. Wouldn't the resulting turmoil be more destructive that the status quo (which I admit is far from ideal, but IMHO the lesser evil)? This is what I mean by absolutes, I believe that one should approach complicated problems globally, rather than by optimizing for just for one local property, even if it's a noble one such as democracy or self-determination. Look at the Arab Spring, there are many lessons here. I like Bertrand Russell's take on liberalism: a difficult balance between maximizing personal freedom while preserving social cohesion.

repolfx 7y ago

Spain would just cease to exist. Spain will cease to exist anyway given the trajectory of the EU. I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. They seem to want to immediately turn around and (re)join the EU, which is rapidly taking over more and more areas of governmental policy. EU forbids different regions from being more "competitive" than others (see their demands to the UK) and implements large wealth transfers from richer to poorer areas, so, the rest of Spain would end up being subsidised by Catalonia still. If you care about Spain existing you should be campaigning for Spain to leave the EU, rather than being distracted by whether Catalonia does or does not possess whatever trivialities the EU leaves behind to member states as it grows.

yiyus 7y ago
> I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. I never cared, but I do care about the image they are projecting of my country (specially as someone living abroad). Moreover, they are doing great getting the worse of everyone. I never liked nationalism (including Spanish nationalism) and now it's worse than ever. And I do not like anti-riot police, and I do not want my government to close web sites, and I do not like to see Barcelona burning, and I do not like the hate I see in the eyes of the independentists when they talk about Spain, neither I like the hate I see in the eyes of some people when they talk about the Catalan independentists or even about Catalonia. And I think I could accept all this if it was for a good reason, but I think it is just stupid nonsense (did we learn nothing from Brexit?). We should be moving forward towards some kind of United States of Europe, and worrying about doing something with all these people from Africa who keep coming here, not about breaking apart and stupid flags. I get many questions from friends from all over the world, and I do not know how to answer them, I just feel shame. That's why I care. If tomorrow the Spanish state disappears and we just become one big European country, I would not mind at all. By the way, you are right about what would happen if an independent Catalonia joint the EU. As a wealthy region, they would have to pay. However, why would the EU allow to join a wealthy country who just decided to break their own laws in order to not subsidize poorer regions?
- oska 7y ago