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> Why do they deserve massive power? They don't. We've given it to them willingly. It has been granted to them by every person who has chosen to "outsource" d

> Why do they deserve massive power? They don't. We've given it to them willingly. It has been granted to them by every person who has chosen to "outsource" dealing with their problems to the police. Loud neighbor? Call the cops. Something doesn't look right at the house down the street? Call the cops. Someone breaking into your home? Call the cops. As a society, many, many of us have forgotten how (or even why) we ought to fight, defend ourselves, or interact with society. So we call the cops and go back to our Netflix or whatever it is we are doing that we don't want to be bothered with.

BubRoss 7y ago
If you have a loud neighbor you personally fight them? The problem here is not that police are carrying out violence that should be enacted by citizens. I think you have misunderstood the need for accountability, not self reliance when it comes to using force.
- nvahalik 7y ago
  No, my point here is that a lot of people don't interact with their neighbors at all. I've had loud neighbors in the past and when I've had a problem gone directly to them and asked them to rectify said issue. They have generally complied. The point is that if we were all better in "public relations" and de-escalation, we wouldn't need the cops at all. But if the default answer is just simply "call the cops" then people do feel attacked and they tend to get defensive.
  - tooop 7y ago
    If everybody was a first class citizen - sure, we don't need cops, but that is not the reality. It is easier to call the cops instead of doing "PR" with a chance for it to get physical and there are probably quite a lot of examples of just that.
merpnderp 7y ago
Maybe because we want justice and not just whomever is more willing to escalate violence to win. Without the cops, any criminal interaction just becomes who’s willing to shoot first. You speak of loud neighbors? In my town a guy was just murdered a few weeks ago over a long running feud about a loud dog. The two homeowners had tried to settle it many times by fighting until one brought a gun.
- ameister14 7y ago
  Except that when you call the cops, you are escalating the situation to include a potentially violent actor. You might want justice, but most people just want help. Multiple times I can name the cops have been called to help and have instead shot innocent people.
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    Why should I assume someone is a rational actor? Why should I take the risk? I pay taxes for professionals who have taken training on how to handle these situations to take that risk. You might live in some nice friendly suburb, but when I saw my neighbor and asked her very politely if there was something she could do about her dog barking all night, her husband came out and threatened violence if I ever talked to his wife again. The cops are here to deal with people like that.
    - ameister14 7y ago
      I do not live in the suburbs. I live in Flatbush. It is my experience that the cops are there to represent the State and it is the right of the state to use violence. We hope they only do it when it's absolutely necessary, but we all know that's not what happens. Sure, call the cops if you need to interact with a violent person. A better solution with neighbors is usually to build a relationship with them when you aren't needing their dog to stop barking, so that when you ask for a favor (which is what that is) they are more likely to grant it. Sometimes, they don't. What do you want the cops to do about it? Shoot the dog? Fine them? You still have your neighbor.
afandian 7y ago
The dominant group has not only outsourced the 'dealing' but also outsourced the externalities to minority groups. I'm coming from the UK perspective, so our police are less trigger-happy and mostly unarmed but certainly have a very dark side. Historically was more likely that the black / Irish / gay / minority-du-jour person ended up lying at the bottom of the stairs in the police station than a straight white person. (Edit: originally phrased in present tense) Maybe the dominant group would be less happy to outsource it if they or their parents had also been on the receiving end.
- concordDance 7y ago
  > It's more likely that the black / Irish / gay / minority-du-jour person ends up lying at the bottom of the stairs in the police station than a straight white person. Do you have a source on this? The idea that an arrested person is more likely to be injured in police custody if they are one of the listed minorities in the 21st century in the UK is very surprising to me.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    There definitely are still problems with the relationship of the police to black communities, especially in London, but the available stats don't make a clear case for it and the overall number is quite small: https://fullfact.org/law/bame-deaths-police-uk/ https://fullfact.org/law/bame-deaths-police-uk/ That discusses deaths in custody. I would like to highlight a specific issue of shootings: > BAME people have made up about one third of those shot by the police since 2004, according to a third set of figures from the Independent Police Complaints Commission. These suggest 8 people from black and minority ethnic communities died in police shootings from 2004/05 to 2015/16, out of a total of 27. > About 14% of people in England and Wales identify as black or minority ethnic, as suggested by Kiri Kwankhende. (Americans are invited to consider that figure of 27 deaths from police shootings over a decade...)
  - afandian 7y ago
    I'm thinking of the past (which is well known) when we constructed the norms on policing. Those examples are certainly drawn from the past 50 years. I could have expressed that better. However, although I wasn't necessarily talking about the present day, we do have to look at the historical context. IMHO police forces such as the Met need to do a huge amount more to convince us that they've stopped. And my point was really that whether someone was beaten up by the police or their parents were, they are much more likely to consider the downsides of getting on the wrong side of the police than someone who has never met anyone who was targeted.
Konnstann 7y ago
Wait what do you do when someone breaks into your house? Grab a bat and go fight them? That's an easy way to get stabbed or shot.
- justforyou 7y ago
  >> Wait what do you do when someone breaks into your house? Grab a bat and go fight them? That's an easy way to get stabbed or shot. Right back at you. Do you seriously run away? Is that your response to any situatuon that includes potential danger?
  - b5n 7y ago
    In a self defense scenario running away (if you have a clear and safe exit) is the best possible option. If someone is breaking into your house from the front, and you can safely exit the back - GTFO to safety and call law enforcement. That being said, if your back is against the wall you have every right to defend yourself.
    - mkr-hn 7y ago
      Depending in the jurisdiction, you might even have a legal obligation to try and get away as a top priority if you can avoid a potentially deadly confrontation.
      - b5n 7y ago
        While I agree, my main point was based on safety. If your primary objective is survival, the idea of grabbing a weapon _and_ moving towards danger is ludicrous (thanks media portrayal). If you are in a life or death situation it might make sense to arm yourself and encroach, but if someone is breaking in your front door and you have access to an exit you are not yet in a life or death situation. Arm yourself and attempt to flee. If you don't have homeowners/renters insurance, live alone, value your property over your life, and enjoy high risk life or death situations - then by all means charge on in. Just make sure you don't shoot your friend who you gave a key 8 months ago stumbling in from a night at the bar.

BubRoss 7y ago

If you have a loud neighbor you personally fight them? The problem here is not that police are carrying out violence that should be enacted by citizens. I think you have misunderstood the need for accountability, not self reliance when it comes to using force.

nvahalik 7y ago
No, my point here is that a lot of people don't interact with their neighbors at all. I've had loud neighbors in the past and when I've had a problem gone directly to them and asked them to rectify said issue. They have generally complied. The point is that if we were all better in "public relations" and de-escalation, we wouldn't need the cops at all. But if the default answer is just simply "call the cops" then people do feel attacked and they tend to get defensive.
- tooop 7y ago
  If everybody was a first class citizen - sure, we don't need cops, but that is not the reality. It is easier to call the cops instead of doing "PR" with a chance for it to get physical and there are probably quite a lot of examples of just that.

merpnderp 7y ago

Maybe because we want justice and not just whomever is more willing to escalate violence to win. Without the cops, any criminal interaction just becomes who’s willing to shoot first. You speak of loud neighbors? In my town a guy was just murdered a few weeks ago over a long running feud about a loud dog. The two homeowners had tried to settle it many times by fighting until one brought a gun.

ameister14 7y ago
Except that when you call the cops, you are escalating the situation to include a potentially violent actor. You might want justice, but most people just want help. Multiple times I can name the cops have been called to help and have instead shot innocent people.
- merpnderp 7y ago
  Why should I assume someone is a rational actor? Why should I take the risk? I pay taxes for professionals who have taken training on how to handle these situations to take that risk. You might live in some nice friendly suburb, but when I saw my neighbor and asked her very politely if there was something she could do about her dog barking all night, her husband came out and threatened violence if I ever talked to his wife again. The cops are here to deal with people like that.
  - ameister14 7y ago
    I do not live in the suburbs. I live in Flatbush. It is my experience that the cops are there to represent the State and it is the right of the state to use violence. We hope they only do it when it's absolutely necessary, but we all know that's not what happens. Sure, call the cops if you need to interact with a violent person. A better solution with neighbors is usually to build a relationship with them when you aren't needing their dog to stop barking, so that when you ask for a favor (which is what that is) they are more likely to grant it. Sometimes, they don't. What do you want the cops to do about it? Shoot the dog? Fine them? You still have your neighbor.

afandian 7y ago

The dominant group has not only outsourced the 'dealing' but also outsourced the externalities to minority groups. I'm coming from the UK perspective, so our police are less trigger-happy and mostly unarmed but certainly have a very dark side. Historically was more likely that the black / Irish / gay / minority-du-jour person ended up lying at the bottom of the stairs in the police station than a straight white person. (Edit: originally phrased in present tense) Maybe the dominant group would be less happy to outsource it if they or their parents had also been on the receiving end.

concordDance 7y ago
> It's more likely that the black / Irish / gay / minority-du-jour person ends up lying at the bottom of the stairs in the police station than a straight white person. Do you have a source on this? The idea that an arrested person is more likely to be injured in police custody if they are one of the listed minorities in the 21st century in the UK is very surprising to me.
- pjc50 7y ago
  There definitely are still problems with the relationship of the police to black communities, especially in London, but the available stats don't make a clear case for it and the overall number is quite small: https://fullfact.org/law/bame-deaths-police-uk/ https://fullfact.org/law/bame-deaths-police-uk/ That discusses deaths in custody. I would like to highlight a specific issue of shootings: > BAME people have made up about one third of those shot by the police since 2004, according to a third set of figures from the Independent Police Complaints Commission. These suggest 8 people from black and minority ethnic communities died in police shootings from 2004/05 to 2015/16, out of a total of 27. > About 14% of people in England and Wales identify as black or minority ethnic, as suggested by Kiri Kwankhende. (Americans are invited to consider that figure of 27 deaths from police shootings over a decade...)
- afandian 7y ago
  I'm thinking of the past (which is well known) when we constructed the norms on policing. Those examples are certainly drawn from the past 50 years. I could have expressed that better. However, although I wasn't necessarily talking about the present day, we do have to look at the historical context. IMHO police forces such as the Met need to do a huge amount more to convince us that they've stopped. And my point was really that whether someone was beaten up by the police or their parents were, they are much more likely to consider the downsides of getting on the wrong side of the police than someone who has never met anyone who was targeted.

Konnstann 7y ago

Wait what do you do when someone breaks into your house? Grab a bat and go fight them? That's an easy way to get stabbed or shot.

justforyou 7y ago
>> Wait what do you do when someone breaks into your house? Grab a bat and go fight them? That's an easy way to get stabbed or shot. Right back at you. Do you seriously run away? Is that your response to any situatuon that includes potential danger?
- b5n 7y ago
  In a self defense scenario running away (if you have a clear and safe exit) is the best possible option. If someone is breaking into your house from the front, and you can safely exit the back - GTFO to safety and call law enforcement. That being said, if your back is against the wall you have every right to defend yourself.
  - mkr-hn 7y ago
    Depending in the jurisdiction, you might even have a legal obligation to try and get away as a top priority if you can avoid a potentially deadly confrontation.
    - b5n 7y ago
      While I agree, my main point was based on safety. If your primary objective is survival, the idea of grabbing a weapon _and_ moving towards danger is ludicrous (thanks media portrayal). If you are in a life or death situation it might make sense to arm yourself and encroach, but if someone is breaking in your front door and you have access to an exit you are not yet in a life or death situation. Arm yourself and attempt to flee. If you don't have homeowners/renters insurance, live alone, value your property over your life, and enjoy high risk life or death situations - then by all means charge on in. Just make sure you don't shoot your friend who you gave a key 8 months ago stumbling in from a night at the bar.