4 ms·

So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and cultu

So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and culturally richer place. I love this diversity. But this is not related to secession at all.

justin66 7y ago
> So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs. > But this is not related to secession at all. The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's all about wealth, which is what you asserted, is crazy. Plenty of secession movements move forward even though they are clearly financially self-defeating for the parties involved. (in my part of the world it's sometimes about Quebec...) I don't have a dog in the fight but it's bothersome that you're trying to erase the reasons they are giving for wanting to secede. It's not helping anybody.
- ahachete 7y ago
  I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.
  - justin66 7y ago
    Ah, I did misunderstand you then, or something.
  - enriquto 7y ago
    > having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible. As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utopical to change spanish culture towards that. I have heard too many times spanish people arrogantly say "I speak spanish because I am in Spain, you are being impolite by using catalan". Of course, idiot! we in spain speak catalan. If anything, catalan is a uniquely spanish language because it is not much spoken elsewere, unlike spanish, which has a strong presence in the world. But to no avail. I have given up in despair. The spanish psyche is inherently incapable to accept this idea. The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.
    - justin66 7y ago
      > The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence. In your view, if the central government let Catalonia have independence in terms of language, including what children are taught in public schools and what appears in public forums and so on, would the independence movement come to an end?
      - enriquto 7y ago
        I don't know, I just stated my personal reason for wanting independence, but I think it's not very representative. Regarding your question, it seems to me that it's too late now. First, the spanish public opinion would not accept any kind of "concession" to Catalonia. Second, any such concession would likely be dismissed as insufficient by independence supporters. The only realistic way out that I see is an escalation of the conflict until it becomes unsustainable economically for spain.
    - yiyus 7y ago
      The Catalan language really was in risk during the dictatorship, but during democracy its status has constantly improved. Nowadays, Catalan is spoken by the majority of Catalonian people, taught in schools, used (even required) in public institutions... How is independence your only way to avoid that it disappears??? You are just telling lies. I like the different languages. I have lived in Spain and other countries where they have different languages, and I like that people make everything possible to conserve their languages and local dialects. And I think all this with my Spanish psyche, no less. But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite.
      - oska 7y ago
        > But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite. Sorry but this is a position of arrogance and entitlement. No-one is obliged to talk to you and if they don't want to do so in a language which has been forced upon their culture at the cost of the indigenous language then they are completely in the right to do so.
- ahbyb 7y ago
  >A complete list would include the Basques País Vasco = Basque Region

justin66 7y ago

> So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs. > But this is not related to secession at all. The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's all about wealth, which is what you asserted, is crazy. Plenty of secession movements move forward even though they are clearly financially self-defeating for the parties involved. (in my part of the world it's sometimes about Quebec...) I don't have a dog in the fight but it's bothersome that you're trying to erase the reasons they are giving for wanting to secede. It's not helping anybody.

ahachete 7y ago
I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.
- justin66 7y ago
  Ah, I did misunderstand you then, or something.
- enriquto 7y ago
  > having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible. As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utopical to change spanish culture towards that. I have heard too many times spanish people arrogantly say "I speak spanish because I am in Spain, you are being impolite by using catalan". Of course, idiot! we in spain speak catalan. If anything, catalan is a uniquely spanish language because it is not much spoken elsewere, unlike spanish, which has a strong presence in the world. But to no avail. I have given up in despair. The spanish psyche is inherently incapable to accept this idea. The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.
  - justin66 7y ago
    > The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence. In your view, if the central government let Catalonia have independence in terms of language, including what children are taught in public schools and what appears in public forums and so on, would the independence movement come to an end?
    - enriquto 7y ago
      I don't know, I just stated my personal reason for wanting independence, but I think it's not very representative. Regarding your question, it seems to me that it's too late now. First, the spanish public opinion would not accept any kind of "concession" to Catalonia. Second, any such concession would likely be dismissed as insufficient by independence supporters. The only realistic way out that I see is an escalation of the conflict until it becomes unsustainable economically for spain.
  - yiyus 7y ago
    The Catalan language really was in risk during the dictatorship, but during democracy its status has constantly improved. Nowadays, Catalan is spoken by the majority of Catalonian people, taught in schools, used (even required) in public institutions... How is independence your only way to avoid that it disappears??? You are just telling lies. I like the different languages. I have lived in Spain and other countries where they have different languages, and I like that people make everything possible to conserve their languages and local dialects. And I think all this with my Spanish psyche, no less. But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite.
    - oska 7y ago
      > But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite. Sorry but this is a position of arrogance and entitlement. No-one is obliged to talk to you and if they don't want to do so in a language which has been forced upon their culture at the cost of the indigenous language then they are completely in the right to do so.
ahbyb 7y ago
>A complete list would include the Basques País Vasco = Basque Region