6 ms·

> They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. All of them? That is ridiculous. It's a re

> They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. All of them? That is ridiculous. It's a region that has maintained its own language since the founding of the modern Spanish state, they clearly have some cultural differences with their parent country.

ahachete 7y ago
So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and culturally richer place. I love this diversity. But this is not related to secession at all.
- justin66 7y ago
  > So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs. > But this is not related to secession at all. The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's all about wealth, which is what you asserted, is crazy. Plenty of secession movements move forward even though they are clearly financially self-defeating for the parties involved. (in my part of the world it's sometimes about Quebec...) I don't have a dog in the fight but it's bothersome that you're trying to erase the reasons they are giving for wanting to secede. It's not helping anybody.
  - ahachete 7y ago
    I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.
    - justin66 7y ago
      Ah, I did misunderstand you then, or something.
    - enriquto 7y ago
      > having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible. As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utopical to change spanish culture towards that. I have heard too many times spanish people arrogantly say "I speak spanish because I am in Spain, you are being impolite by using catalan". Of course, idiot! we in spain speak catalan. If anything, catalan is a uniquely spanish language because it is not much spoken elsewere, unlike spanish, which has a strong presence in the world. But to no avail. I have given up in despair. The spanish psyche is inherently incapable to accept this idea. The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.
      - justin66 7y ago
        > The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence. In your view, if the central government let Catalonia have independence in terms of language, including what children are taught in public schools and what appears in public forums and so on, would the independence movement come to an end?
        enriquto 7y ago
        I don't know, I just stated my personal reason for wanting independence, but I think it's not very representative. Regarding your question, it seems to me that it's too late now. First, the spanish public opinion would not accept any kind of "concession" to Catalonia. Second, any such concession would likely be dismissed as insufficient by independence supporters. The only realistic way out that I see is an escalation of the conflict until it becomes unsustainable economically for spain.
  - ahbyb 7y ago
    >A complete list would include the Basques País Vasco = Basque Region

ahachete 7y ago

So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and culturally richer place. I love this diversity. But this is not related to secession at all.

justin66 7y ago
> So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs. > But this is not related to secession at all. The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's all about wealth, which is what you asserted, is crazy. Plenty of secession movements move forward even though they are clearly financially self-defeating for the parties involved. (in my part of the world it's sometimes about Quebec...) I don't have a dog in the fight but it's bothersome that you're trying to erase the reasons they are giving for wanting to secede. It's not helping anybody.
- ahachete 7y ago
  I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.
  - justin66 7y ago
    Ah, I did misunderstand you then, or something.
  - enriquto 7y ago
    > having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible. As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utopical to change spanish culture towards that. I have heard too many times spanish people arrogantly say "I speak spanish because I am in Spain, you are being impolite by using catalan". Of course, idiot! we in spain speak catalan. If anything, catalan is a uniquely spanish language because it is not much spoken elsewere, unlike spanish, which has a strong presence in the world. But to no avail. I have given up in despair. The spanish psyche is inherently incapable to accept this idea. The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.
    - justin66 7y ago
      > The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence. In your view, if the central government let Catalonia have independence in terms of language, including what children are taught in public schools and what appears in public forums and so on, would the independence movement come to an end?
      - enriquto 7y ago
        I don't know, I just stated my personal reason for wanting independence, but I think it's not very representative. Regarding your question, it seems to me that it's too late now. First, the spanish public opinion would not accept any kind of "concession" to Catalonia. Second, any such concession would likely be dismissed as insufficient by independence supporters. The only realistic way out that I see is an escalation of the conflict until it becomes unsustainable economically for spain.
- ahbyb 7y ago
  >A complete list would include the Basques País Vasco = Basque Region