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Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - The

Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.

throwaway8756 7y ago
To be honest, they voted the constitution in 1978, not that long ago
- joscas 7y ago
  The choice at that time was military rule vs. constitution. What would you pick?
  - throwaway8756 7y ago
    Sorry but that's not true. There was a compromise between all regions and parties, but military rule was never an option. In fact, they were discussing long for an agreement that would satisfy all parties (obviously not 100%, but that's why it's a compromise)
kuu 7y ago
And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  I don't see how it's selfish. If you believe that something is wrong, it's your moral imperative to try to rectify a situation, regardless of what others think about it.
  - yiyus 7y ago
    > regardless of what others think about it This is why it is selfish.
    - UserIsUnused 7y ago
      I agree. but I want to add that selfish doesn't mean wrong. Or even ethically wrong.
- arijun 7y ago
  I don't know that it's obvious that the people outside of Catalonia should have a say in Catalonia's secession (which would mean it wouldn't matter what the majority of Spain wants, just the majority of Catalans) Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90% are anti-secession. Keep in mind, I don't live anywhere near the area, so I can't get a gut feeling that someone from there might be able to get.
  - _0ffh 7y ago
    It was an illegal, explicitly forbidden referendum that voted 90% for secession. That anyone even bothered to turn up, just to vote "no" is a small miracle. So, yeah, it seems very likely to me that >90% of those who didn't vote at all would have voted against.
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession) Are voter turnouts normally that high in Spain?
      - yiyus 7y ago
        The referendum was totally out of control. I will always condemn the violent response of the police that day, but the referendum was a total nonsense. You can easily find images of boxes left on the street and people "voting" without any control. And the counting (and whole organization) was done by those who wanted independence. You cannot trust those numbers. There were regional elections on December 2017 and the independentist parties put together got 70 seats of 135 (less than the 72 they had before). More recently, in the elections for the national government this April, they only got 22 seats of 48 (some of the independentists refused to participate in Spanish elections after declaring independence, but turnout was still very high, more than 75%). The independentists never talk about these numbers, only the 90%. And I think that, many of them, seriously believe they are the 90%.
- repolfx 7y ago
  NB: The Scottish independence referendum did not allow the rest of the UK to vote. It was considered a matter for the Scots alone. Arguably this wasn't fair. Splitting a country in two affects everyone, so why couldn't everyone vote? But if the rest of the country could vote then there'd not have been even a tiny hope the SNP would have accepted the results. In fact, they did not accept that they lost anyway, even when voting was restricted to Scotland. But it's easy to understand why the referendum was designed the way it was. Ironically it might be that these days the rest of the UK would kick Scotland out, if they were given a vote. It's not necessarily true that everyone cares about the Union.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  The majority of the British Empire would not have supported the right of the American colonies to secede. Does that mean it was wrong of them to do so? Should the Americans have instead pursued their cause in Parliament, where they were unrepresented?
  - yiyus 7y ago
    The difference here is that Catalonia is an integral part of Spain, not a colony. They are perfectly well represented in every institution, and have in fact had a central role in most governments since the end of the dictatorship. Both situations are totally different. And, by the way, they did not only break Spanish laws in their road to independence, they also broke the rules of their own regional parliament, laws they had created.
UserIsUnused 7y ago
The other regions of Spain are not so much Castile lovers as you think.
ahachete 7y ago
> - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution. You are right that they don't do, specially the authorities there. And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It cannot be tolerated. They are out of the law, and many have been convicted because of this. Every thing needs to be done under the law. And if you don't like it, within the law, you need to push to change it. It's the only way.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  > And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It is only anti democratic if you accept that this is the way the majority of your people want this. These people think that it's a tyrany. That's it's one laid upon them by an outside majority does not help.

throwaway8756 7y ago

To be honest, they voted the constitution in 1978, not that long ago

joscas 7y ago
The choice at that time was military rule vs. constitution. What would you pick?
- throwaway8756 7y ago
  Sorry but that's not true. There was a compromise between all regions and parties, but military rule was never an option. In fact, they were discussing long for an agreement that would satisfy all parties (obviously not 100%, but that's why it's a compromise)

kuu 7y ago

And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.

AllegedAlec 7y ago
I don't see how it's selfish. If you believe that something is wrong, it's your moral imperative to try to rectify a situation, regardless of what others think about it.
- yiyus 7y ago
  > regardless of what others think about it This is why it is selfish.
  - UserIsUnused 7y ago
    I agree. but I want to add that selfish doesn't mean wrong. Or even ethically wrong.
arijun 7y ago
I don't know that it's obvious that the people outside of Catalonia should have a say in Catalonia's secession (which would mean it wouldn't matter what the majority of Spain wants, just the majority of Catalans) Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90% are anti-secession. Keep in mind, I don't live anywhere near the area, so I can't get a gut feeling that someone from there might be able to get.
- _0ffh 7y ago
  It was an illegal, explicitly forbidden referendum that voted 90% for secession. That anyone even bothered to turn up, just to vote "no" is a small miracle. So, yeah, it seems very likely to me that >90% of those who didn't vote at all would have voted against.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession) Are voter turnouts normally that high in Spain?
    - yiyus 7y ago
      The referendum was totally out of control. I will always condemn the violent response of the police that day, but the referendum was a total nonsense. You can easily find images of boxes left on the street and people "voting" without any control. And the counting (and whole organization) was done by those who wanted independence. You cannot trust those numbers. There were regional elections on December 2017 and the independentist parties put together got 70 seats of 135 (less than the 72 they had before). More recently, in the elections for the national government this April, they only got 22 seats of 48 (some of the independentists refused to participate in Spanish elections after declaring independence, but turnout was still very high, more than 75%). The independentists never talk about these numbers, only the 90%. And I think that, many of them, seriously believe they are the 90%.
repolfx 7y ago
NB: The Scottish independence referendum did not allow the rest of the UK to vote. It was considered a matter for the Scots alone. Arguably this wasn't fair. Splitting a country in two affects everyone, so why couldn't everyone vote? But if the rest of the country could vote then there'd not have been even a tiny hope the SNP would have accepted the results. In fact, they did not accept that they lost anyway, even when voting was restricted to Scotland. But it's easy to understand why the referendum was designed the way it was. Ironically it might be that these days the rest of the UK would kick Scotland out, if they were given a vote. It's not necessarily true that everyone cares about the Union.
DuskStar 7y ago
The majority of the British Empire would not have supported the right of the American colonies to secede. Does that mean it was wrong of them to do so? Should the Americans have instead pursued their cause in Parliament, where they were unrepresented?
- yiyus 7y ago
  The difference here is that Catalonia is an integral part of Spain, not a colony. They are perfectly well represented in every institution, and have in fact had a central role in most governments since the end of the dictatorship. Both situations are totally different. And, by the way, they did not only break Spanish laws in their road to independence, they also broke the rules of their own regional parliament, laws they had created.

UserIsUnused 7y ago

The other regions of Spain are not so much Castile lovers as you think.

ahachete 7y ago

> - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution. You are right that they don't do, specially the authorities there. And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It cannot be tolerated. They are out of the law, and many have been convicted because of this. Every thing needs to be done under the law. And if you don't like it, within the law, you need to push to change it. It's the only way.

AllegedAlec 7y ago
> And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It is only anti democratic if you accept that this is the way the majority of your people want this. These people think that it's a tyrany. That's it's one laid upon them by an outside majority does not help.