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Tsunami Democratic is being investigated by Spanish authorities for promoting public disorders and criminal activities. So Spain is making what is need to to pr

Tsunami Democratic is being investigated by Spanish authorities for promoting public disorders and criminal activities. So Spain is making what is need to to prevent criminal activities and (further) public disorders in Catalonia. I don't know how some Catalonian citizens are letting themselves be influenced by some corrupt politicians trying to enrich theirselves and avoid prison. Check out democracy index in Spain (ranked 19th): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index that is a better score than France, USA, Japan... For people outside Spain, don't let yourself be fooled by the name of this group. There is nothing democratic in "tsunami democratic".

johnsteward 7y ago
The democracy index for Spain has been on the free fall for some years now. Whether Spain will return to a democratic approach to resolving civic and political issues rather than the current authoritarian approach that curtails civil freedoms for all Spaniards--not just Catalans--remains to be seen. As for Tsunami Democratic, I'm afraid news reports haven't been fair. The disorders and criminal activities--which by the way the Spanish courts are labeling as "terrorism" despite any evidence--have been, by and large, carried out by infiltrated police agents. There is plenty of video footage online demonstrating case after case of police agents dressed as demonstrators, emerging from police vans in a side alley, joining a demonstration and engaging in deplorable behavior.
- professorTuring 7y ago
  Can you support your statements with evidence? The data I provided is from 2018 and you are making assumptions based on a bunch of people in a country (2MM vs 50MM). What is happening here is that some independentists patrons are paying for PR around the world and you, guys, are only getting one part of the story. You don't know nothing about they teaching fake history to kids, stating Colon is Catalonian, stating that the American flag is based on Catalonian flag... These guys are ridiculous and they have been brainwashing their population for decades. We even have Junqueras (one of the leaders of the movement) telling that genetically, the Catalonian people are better than Spanish people so they need to separate. Today, you have a lot of young people defending what they have been taught without knowing they are defending a bunch of lies.
yeahforsureman 7y ago
Better stick to the facts rather than partisan polemics and distortion. They made Github take down an app for spreading information on and organizing demonstrations. These demonstrations have been by and large peaceful. Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly are fundamental and human rights under the international commitments (ECHR, EU Fundamental Rights Charter etc.) Spain has entered into. What this looks like, unfortunately, is abusing their anti-terrorism laws to quell any protests. EU Commission should take a hard look on Spain and probably launch a rule-of-law review.
- professorTuring 7y ago
  > Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly Completely agree, but the investigation goes toward how this group is using this assemblies to promote disorders, chaos and unlawful activities. Each of the manifestation in Catalonia and in Madrid have been approved and we have been able to see hundred of people fighting for their beliefs. We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    > We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated. The American Revolution was a criminal activity. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela were all deemed criminal and jailed. The protests in Hong Kong right now are considered criminal activities. So no, we will not agree that "promoting criminal activities doesn't help" a cause. I have no opinion on or interest in Catalonian independence, but if you want to make a case against it, you'll need to try a different approach. It's neither surprising nor informative when ruling governments call independence movements criminal.
    - yiyus 7y ago
      But professorTuring did not say a cause, he said "Catalonian cause". You are right in that promoting criminal activities can help a cause in very specific cases, but I don't think is relevant here. Gandhi, MLK, etc had legitimate reasons to break the law. Unless the Catalan independentist movement can convince the international community that they also have a legitimate reason, taking the law in their hands will not help them with their objective. By the way, the ruling government has never called the independence movement criminal. It's perfectly legal to support independence, demonstrate, create, fund and promote independentist political parties, try to change laws to achieve self-determination... All that is perfectly legal in Spain. Disobeying court orders or mishandling public funds, however, it is not legal in Spain or any other country I know. You ask for a different approach to make a case against Catalonian independence, but I do not think this is fair. The burden of proof is not on those who think they should not break the law, but in those who think they should. If you want to form an opinion by yourself I suggest you to try to find the reasons they have to want independence, from their own sources, but crosschecking any "historical facts" you find. If after that you think they have a legitimate reason to break the law, I'd like to hear it.

johnsteward 7y ago

The democracy index for Spain has been on the free fall for some years now. Whether Spain will return to a democratic approach to resolving civic and political issues rather than the current authoritarian approach that curtails civil freedoms for all Spaniards--not just Catalans--remains to be seen. As for Tsunami Democratic, I'm afraid news reports haven't been fair. The disorders and criminal activities--which by the way the Spanish courts are labeling as "terrorism" despite any evidence--have been, by and large, carried out by infiltrated police agents. There is plenty of video footage online demonstrating case after case of police agents dressed as demonstrators, emerging from police vans in a side alley, joining a demonstration and engaging in deplorable behavior.

professorTuring 7y ago
Can you support your statements with evidence? The data I provided is from 2018 and you are making assumptions based on a bunch of people in a country (2MM vs 50MM). What is happening here is that some independentists patrons are paying for PR around the world and you, guys, are only getting one part of the story. You don't know nothing about they teaching fake history to kids, stating Colon is Catalonian, stating that the American flag is based on Catalonian flag... These guys are ridiculous and they have been brainwashing their population for decades. We even have Junqueras (one of the leaders of the movement) telling that genetically, the Catalonian people are better than Spanish people so they need to separate. Today, you have a lot of young people defending what they have been taught without knowing they are defending a bunch of lies.

yeahforsureman 7y ago

Better stick to the facts rather than partisan polemics and distortion. They made Github take down an app for spreading information on and organizing demonstrations. These demonstrations have been by and large peaceful. Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly are fundamental and human rights under the international commitments (ECHR, EU Fundamental Rights Charter etc.) Spain has entered into. What this looks like, unfortunately, is abusing their anti-terrorism laws to quell any protests. EU Commission should take a hard look on Spain and probably launch a rule-of-law review.

professorTuring 7y ago
> Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly Completely agree, but the investigation goes toward how this group is using this assemblies to promote disorders, chaos and unlawful activities. Each of the manifestation in Catalonia and in Madrid have been approved and we have been able to see hundred of people fighting for their beliefs. We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated.
- leereeves 7y ago
  > We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated. The American Revolution was a criminal activity. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela were all deemed criminal and jailed. The protests in Hong Kong right now are considered criminal activities. So no, we will not agree that "promoting criminal activities doesn't help" a cause. I have no opinion on or interest in Catalonian independence, but if you want to make a case against it, you'll need to try a different approach. It's neither surprising nor informative when ruling governments call independence movements criminal.
  - yiyus 7y ago
    But professorTuring did not say a cause, he said "Catalonian cause". You are right in that promoting criminal activities can help a cause in very specific cases, but I don't think is relevant here. Gandhi, MLK, etc had legitimate reasons to break the law. Unless the Catalan independentist movement can convince the international community that they also have a legitimate reason, taking the law in their hands will not help them with their objective. By the way, the ruling government has never called the independence movement criminal. It's perfectly legal to support independence, demonstrate, create, fund and promote independentist political parties, try to change laws to achieve self-determination... All that is perfectly legal in Spain. Disobeying court orders or mishandling public funds, however, it is not legal in Spain or any other country I know. You ask for a different approach to make a case against Catalonian independence, but I do not think this is fair. The burden of proof is not on those who think they should not break the law, but in those who think they should. If you want to form an opinion by yourself I suggest you to try to find the reasons they have to want independence, from their own sources, but crosschecking any "historical facts" you find. If after that you think they have a legitimate reason to break the law, I'd like to hear it.