4 ms·

They could have gone the legal route, and push to amend the constitution first. Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.

AllegedAlec 7y ago
Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.
- throwaway8756 7y ago
  To be honest, they voted the constitution in 1978, not that long ago
  - joscas 7y ago
    The choice at that time was military rule vs. constitution. What would you pick?
    - throwaway8756 7y ago
      Sorry but that's not true. There was a compromise between all regions and parties, but military rule was never an option. In fact, they were discussing long for an agreement that would satisfy all parties (obviously not 100%, but that's why it's a compromise)
- kuu 7y ago
  And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    I don't see how it's selfish. If you believe that something is wrong, it's your moral imperative to try to rectify a situation, regardless of what others think about it.
    - yiyus 7y ago
      > regardless of what others think about it This is why it is selfish.
      - UserIsUnused 7y ago
        I agree. but I want to add that selfish doesn't mean wrong. Or even ethically wrong.
  - arijun 7y ago
    I don't know that it's obvious that the people outside of Catalonia should have a say in Catalonia's secession (which would mean it wouldn't matter what the majority of Spain wants, just the majority of Catalans) Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90% are anti-secession. Keep in mind, I don't live anywhere near the area, so I can't get a gut feeling that someone from there might be able to get.
    - _0ffh 7y ago
      It was an illegal, explicitly forbidden referendum that voted 90% for secession. That anyone even bothered to turn up, just to vote "no" is a small miracle. So, yeah, it seems very likely to me that >90% of those who didn't vote at all would have voted against.
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession) Are voter turnouts normally that high in Spain?
- UserIsUnused 7y ago
  The other regions of Spain are not so much Castile lovers as you think.
- ahachete 7y ago
  > - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution. You are right that they don't do, specially the authorities there. And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It cannot be tolerated. They are out of the law, and many have been convicted because of this. Every thing needs to be done under the law. And if you don't like it, within the law, you need to push to change it. It's the only way.
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    > And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It is only anti democratic if you accept that this is the way the majority of your people want this. These people think that it's a tyrany. That's it's one laid upon them by an outside majority does not help.
reallydontask 7y ago
I'm not sure what they thought that was going to happen, specially given that actual support for independence hardly ever tops 50%.

AllegedAlec 7y ago

Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.

throwaway8756 7y ago
To be honest, they voted the constitution in 1978, not that long ago
- joscas 7y ago
  The choice at that time was military rule vs. constitution. What would you pick?
  - throwaway8756 7y ago
    Sorry but that's not true. There was a compromise between all regions and parties, but military rule was never an option. In fact, they were discussing long for an agreement that would satisfy all parties (obviously not 100%, but that's why it's a compromise)
kuu 7y ago
And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  I don't see how it's selfish. If you believe that something is wrong, it's your moral imperative to try to rectify a situation, regardless of what others think about it.
  - yiyus 7y ago
    > regardless of what others think about it This is why it is selfish.
    - UserIsUnused 7y ago
      I agree. but I want to add that selfish doesn't mean wrong. Or even ethically wrong.
- arijun 7y ago
  I don't know that it's obvious that the people outside of Catalonia should have a say in Catalonia's secession (which would mean it wouldn't matter what the majority of Spain wants, just the majority of Catalans) Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90% are anti-secession. Keep in mind, I don't live anywhere near the area, so I can't get a gut feeling that someone from there might be able to get.
  - _0ffh 7y ago
    It was an illegal, explicitly forbidden referendum that voted 90% for secession. That anyone even bothered to turn up, just to vote "no" is a small miracle. So, yeah, it seems very likely to me that >90% of those who didn't vote at all would have voted against.
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession) Are voter turnouts normally that high in Spain?
UserIsUnused 7y ago
The other regions of Spain are not so much Castile lovers as you think.
ahachete 7y ago
> - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution. You are right that they don't do, specially the authorities there. And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It cannot be tolerated. They are out of the law, and many have been convicted because of this. Every thing needs to be done under the law. And if you don't like it, within the law, you need to push to change it. It's the only way.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  > And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It is only anti democratic if you accept that this is the way the majority of your people want this. These people think that it's a tyrany. That's it's one laid upon them by an outside majority does not help.

reallydontask 7y ago

I'm not sure what they thought that was going to happen, specially given that actual support for independence hardly ever tops 50%.