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There are many alleged reasons why some people from Catalonia want to secede from Spain. They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" r

There are many alleged reasons why some people from Catalonia want to secede from Spain. They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. Similar to Brexit. Probably, same wrong perspective. Irrespective of this, Spanish Constitution has a very strong enforcement of Spain's sovereignty and unity. It belongs to all Spanish people. So if that is to be altered --i.e., any region wants to secede-- is a decision that must involve every Spanish citizen. So in order to proceed, either everybody needs to participate in such a decision, or the Constitution needs to be amended. The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally". That's against the Constitution, and the State needs to protect itself from that. Anyway, if Catalonia would eventually and legally secede from Spain, it will be automatically out of the EU. And in order to gain access to the EU, it would need to apply and be approved unanimously by every EU country. In other words, Spain may veto that. My opinion: it's shooting yourself on the feet. I believe they never intended to secede, they were just pushing this road hard to negotiate better financing and money for Catalonia. They have been doing this for many decades. But this time they took it too far, lost control of it, and now they don't know how to back track it.

UserIsUnused 7y ago
They could have gone the legal route, and push to amend the constitution first. Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.
  - throwaway8756 7y ago
    To be honest, they voted the constitution in 1978, not that long ago
    - joscas 7y ago
      The choice at that time was military rule vs. constitution. What would you pick?
      - throwaway8756 7y ago
        Sorry but that's not true. There was a compromise between all regions and parties, but military rule was never an option. In fact, they were discussing long for an agreement that would satisfy all parties (obviously not 100%, but that's why it's a compromise)
  - kuu 7y ago
    And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.
    - AllegedAlec 7y ago
      I don't see how it's selfish. If you believe that something is wrong, it's your moral imperative to try to rectify a situation, regardless of what others think about it.
      - yiyus 7y ago
        > regardless of what others think about it This is why it is selfish.
        UserIsUnused 7y ago
        I agree. but I want to add that selfish doesn't mean wrong. Or even ethically wrong.
- reallydontask 7y ago
  I'm not sure what they thought that was going to happen, specially given that actual support for independence hardly ever tops 50%.
justin66 7y ago
> They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. All of them? That is ridiculous. It's a region that has maintained its own language since the founding of the modern Spanish state, they clearly have some cultural differences with their parent country.
- ahachete 7y ago
  So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and culturally richer place. I love this diversity. But this is not related to secession at all.
  - justin66 7y ago
    > So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs. > But this is not related to secession at all. The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's all about wealth, which is what you asserted, is crazy. Plenty of secession movements move forward even though they are clearly financially self-defeating for the parties involved. (in my part of the world it's sometimes about Quebec...) I don't have a dog in the fight but it's bothersome that you're trying to erase the reasons they are giving for wanting to secede. It's not helping anybody.
    - ahachete 7y ago
      I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.
      - justin66 7y ago
gmueckl 7y ago
One thing to note here is that the Spanish government pushed heavily on favor of the interpretation that a region that splits from an EU member state also drops out of the EU. This is a calculated move to create a disincentive. The flipside is that Spain was pushing for this when Scotland was holding its independence referendum. So the Scottish people were told that they would crash out of the EU if they voted for independence. Now they are forced to leave the EU because they voted against independence.
johnsteward 7y ago
Catalonia isn't the richest region of Spain anymore. The separate identity emerges from a distinct latinic language--Catalan--, and a history of past independence. The perceived lack of respect by Spanish authorities of Catalan culture is a major issue. The fact that militarized Spanish police--the "guardia civil"--ignore Catalan law (which is part of Spanish law) when it comes to e.g. the use of rubber bullets (forbidden in Catalonia) against demonstrators isn't helping. The judiciary branch not prosecuting these illegal acts only adds further tension. And the right-wing Spaniards displaying Franco-era national flags with the black eagle--illegal in Spain--in their demonstrations, all the while taking selfies with on-duty civil guards only comes to show that the Spanish institutions, judiciary, executive, legislative and the military have already taken sides, and will ignore their own law to preserve the unity of the territory, even if that means dismantling the democratic foundations of the state.
goatinaboat 7y ago
The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally". Similarly a vote for Scottish independence should have included the entire UK, the difference being of course the likely outcome! There is a lot of this sentiment throughout the EU and the Spanish do not want to be the ones who open the floodgates.
- ahachete 7y ago
  Scottish can do a referendum by themselves because that's allowed by their laws, and goes back to historical reasons. In Spain, the Constitution does not allow for a part of Spain to decide secession. It's very different stories.

UserIsUnused 7y ago

They could have gone the legal route, and push to amend the constitution first. Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.

AllegedAlec 7y ago
Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.
- throwaway8756 7y ago
  To be honest, they voted the constitution in 1978, not that long ago
  - joscas 7y ago
    The choice at that time was military rule vs. constitution. What would you pick?
    - throwaway8756 7y ago
      Sorry but that's not true. There was a compromise between all regions and parties, but military rule was never an option. In fact, they were discussing long for an agreement that would satisfy all parties (obviously not 100%, but that's why it's a compromise)
- kuu 7y ago
  And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    I don't see how it's selfish. If you believe that something is wrong, it's your moral imperative to try to rectify a situation, regardless of what others think about it.
    - yiyus 7y ago
      > regardless of what others think about it This is why it is selfish.
      - UserIsUnused 7y ago
        I agree. but I want to add that selfish doesn't mean wrong. Or even ethically wrong.
reallydontask 7y ago
I'm not sure what they thought that was going to happen, specially given that actual support for independence hardly ever tops 50%.

justin66 7y ago

> They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. All of them? That is ridiculous. It's a region that has maintained its own language since the founding of the modern Spanish state, they clearly have some cultural differences with their parent country.

ahachete 7y ago
So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and culturally richer place. I love this diversity. But this is not related to secession at all.
- justin66 7y ago
  > So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs. > But this is not related to secession at all. The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's all about wealth, which is what you asserted, is crazy. Plenty of secession movements move forward even though they are clearly financially self-defeating for the parties involved. (in my part of the world it's sometimes about Quebec...) I don't have a dog in the fight but it's bothersome that you're trying to erase the reasons they are giving for wanting to secede. It's not helping anybody.
  - ahachete 7y ago
    I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.
    - justin66 7y ago

gmueckl 7y ago

One thing to note here is that the Spanish government pushed heavily on favor of the interpretation that a region that splits from an EU member state also drops out of the EU. This is a calculated move to create a disincentive. The flipside is that Spain was pushing for this when Scotland was holding its independence referendum. So the Scottish people were told that they would crash out of the EU if they voted for independence. Now they are forced to leave the EU because they voted against independence.

johnsteward 7y ago

Catalonia isn't the richest region of Spain anymore. The separate identity emerges from a distinct latinic language--Catalan--, and a history of past independence. The perceived lack of respect by Spanish authorities of Catalan culture is a major issue. The fact that militarized Spanish police--the "guardia civil"--ignore Catalan law (which is part of Spanish law) when it comes to e.g. the use of rubber bullets (forbidden in Catalonia) against demonstrators isn't helping. The judiciary branch not prosecuting these illegal acts only adds further tension. And the right-wing Spaniards displaying Franco-era national flags with the black eagle--illegal in Spain--in their demonstrations, all the while taking selfies with on-duty civil guards only comes to show that the Spanish institutions, judiciary, executive, legislative and the military have already taken sides, and will ignore their own law to preserve the unity of the territory, even if that means dismantling the democratic foundations of the state.

goatinaboat 7y ago

The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally". Similarly a vote for Scottish independence should have included the entire UK, the difference being of course the likely outcome! There is a lot of this sentiment throughout the EU and the Spanish do not want to be the ones who open the floodgates.

ahachete 7y ago
Scottish can do a referendum by themselves because that's allowed by their laws, and goes back to historical reasons. In Spain, the Constitution does not allow for a part of Spain to decide secession. It's very different stories.