3 ms·

Just Spain not EU. It's the typical second biggest city not having internal relevance compared to the capital even though it's as good, together with the commo

Just Spain not EU. It's the typical second biggest city not having internal relevance compared to the capital even though it's as good, together with the common claim of everything happens in the capital, decisions are there, most money stays there, etc. Also, it's slightly different culture, language, etc. And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war. Discontent keeps happening, catalonian patriots gets in power, central government remembers that constitution prohibits secession, they do a referendum anyway, (90% win for getting out), get arrested/exiled, with draws bigger attention to the cause, Streisand effect and all that. Spain issn't really an united nation, you have actual separatist terrorists in Basque (which have a peace treaty recently), the new separatists of Catalonia, Andaluzia has seen the rise of dissidents as well. Add to the fact that some regions actually have their own language. I remember one time while crossing the border by car, seeing a tourist information sign vandalized because in was written in Castillan (language of the capital, main "spanish" language). Beneath all the vandalous paint, was a sentence: "speak the <local-language>". And this was not in one of those more dissindent regions. Later I got into the city, and every sign was in multiple languages

buboard 7y ago
Ok the catalans may be arrogant, but did something significantly change in recent years? Usually these bravado-led movements are a result of stagnant economy like in Italy.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  The Spanish economy is in the gutters. That probably doesn't help.
- UserIsUnused 7y ago
  Well, there was the global crisis, that Spain was affected. Besides that, I don't think that there was anything big, it's just with the rise of things like populism and patriotism, it's normal for these movements to rise as well, as they already existed. It was just short of some leaders, and opportunity. The secession of Catalonia actually appeals to me, but these seems more manipulation by their charismatic leader than an actual resolve. They could do it slowly building the movement and trying to amend the constitution. No rush. Rushing was just trying to get more money which got over their heads as the support and reaction was bigger than expected.
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    > Besides that, I don't think that there was anything big The economy is still fucked. Spain has an overall unemployment rate of roughly 15%, and over 30% unemployment of people under 25.
- ikurei 7y ago
  Politicians have been leveraging this for years, using this division to their benefits. And these applies both to catalonian politicians using independence and blaming everything in Madrid, and national parties in Madrid demonizing Catalonia. They've been making a huge snowball of this, and it's starting to be too much. From talking to some catalonian people, I think the last economic crisis, its management, and the corruption scandals in Partido Popular (the party that govered Spain from 2011 to 2018, but is always extremely irrelevant in Catalonia) had a lot to do with it, as it was easy for many to blame those on Madrid, on Spain, or "on the Castilians". (I'm from Castilla but around half of my family emigrated to Barcelona a generation ago. I don't hate any catalonian who wants independence, they have that right; I'm sick of how both sides use FUD and hatred.)
  - yiyus 7y ago
    > the corruption scandals in Partido Popular (the party that govered Spain from 2011 to 2018, but is always extremely irrelevant in Catalonia) had a lot to do with it I understand they are the perfect enemy and have zero sympathy for them, and I agree with you this is the feeling of many people in Catalonia, but I find this argument very weak, taking into account that corruption scandals affected their regional government too (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_3%25 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_3%25).
manojlds 7y ago
Sounds a lot like some of the protests in Southern India regarding economic input vs tax money spent and language difference. And a sibling comment mentioned bull fighting and funnily exact thing has been an issue between a southern Indian state, the central govt and the judiciary.
tcard 7y ago
> And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war. Not over the Catalonia issue, by any strecht. (Although Catalanists did take sides.)
aspaviento 7y ago
> they do a referendum anyway, (90% win for getting out) they do an illegal referendum so that 90% means nothing when many people didn't vote (obviously you are going to take a favorable result when only the people interested on it vote)
- DuskStar 7y ago
  For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession) If you get 100% turnout, and no one who voted in the referendum changes their vote, you'd need 91% of the new voters to vote to remain a part of Spain. Is it truly that implausible that some of the "leave" voters would have stayed away from an illegal referendum too? Assuming that the results of the illegal referendum were accurate of course.

buboard 7y ago

Ok the catalans may be arrogant, but did something significantly change in recent years? Usually these bravado-led movements are a result of stagnant economy like in Italy.

AllegedAlec 7y ago
The Spanish economy is in the gutters. That probably doesn't help.
UserIsUnused 7y ago
Well, there was the global crisis, that Spain was affected. Besides that, I don't think that there was anything big, it's just with the rise of things like populism and patriotism, it's normal for these movements to rise as well, as they already existed. It was just short of some leaders, and opportunity. The secession of Catalonia actually appeals to me, but these seems more manipulation by their charismatic leader than an actual resolve. They could do it slowly building the movement and trying to amend the constitution. No rush. Rushing was just trying to get more money which got over their heads as the support and reaction was bigger than expected.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  > Besides that, I don't think that there was anything big The economy is still fucked. Spain has an overall unemployment rate of roughly 15%, and over 30% unemployment of people under 25.
ikurei 7y ago
Politicians have been leveraging this for years, using this division to their benefits. And these applies both to catalonian politicians using independence and blaming everything in Madrid, and national parties in Madrid demonizing Catalonia. They've been making a huge snowball of this, and it's starting to be too much. From talking to some catalonian people, I think the last economic crisis, its management, and the corruption scandals in Partido Popular (the party that govered Spain from 2011 to 2018, but is always extremely irrelevant in Catalonia) had a lot to do with it, as it was easy for many to blame those on Madrid, on Spain, or "on the Castilians". (I'm from Castilla but around half of my family emigrated to Barcelona a generation ago. I don't hate any catalonian who wants independence, they have that right; I'm sick of how both sides use FUD and hatred.)
- yiyus 7y ago
  > the corruption scandals in Partido Popular (the party that govered Spain from 2011 to 2018, but is always extremely irrelevant in Catalonia) had a lot to do with it I understand they are the perfect enemy and have zero sympathy for them, and I agree with you this is the feeling of many people in Catalonia, but I find this argument very weak, taking into account that corruption scandals affected their regional government too (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_3%25 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_3%25).

manojlds 7y ago

Sounds a lot like some of the protests in Southern India regarding economic input vs tax money spent and language difference. And a sibling comment mentioned bull fighting and funnily exact thing has been an issue between a southern Indian state, the central govt and the judiciary.

tcard 7y ago

> And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war. Not over the Catalonia issue, by any strecht. (Although Catalanists did take sides.)

aspaviento 7y ago

> they do a referendum anyway, (90% win for getting out) they do an illegal referendum so that 90% means nothing when many people didn't vote (obviously you are going to take a favorable result when only the people interested on it vote)

DuskStar 7y ago
For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession) If you get 100% turnout, and no one who voted in the referendum changes their vote, you'd need 91% of the new voters to vote to remain a part of Spain. Is it truly that implausible that some of the "leave" voters would have stayed away from an illegal referendum too? Assuming that the results of the illegal referendum were accurate of course.