6 ms·

Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as

by mikece 7y ago

Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the EU? Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU?

ahbyb 7y ago
It's something similar to north/south Italy: they are tired of sharing their monies with the poorer regions of Spain, which they regard as lazy and stupid.
- darkwater 7y ago
  Being an Italian living in Catalonia for a few years now I absolutely say that it's not the same at all. While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties in Catalonia were basically left-wing (and now they cover almost all of the spectrum), and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs". Having said that, there are obviously Catalans on the pro-independence side that can just be Lega Nord supporters. But the funny thing is that there are lots of Spaniards/Catalans against independence that can be Lega Nord supporters as well.
  - ahbyb 7y ago
    >and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs" Then imagine how it is for the poor regions of Spain.
    - darkwater 7y ago
      But Catalonia would still help them via European Union. And in general money is not that relevant on this topic, at least on the catalan side, as it was just a few years ago.
  - throwaway8756 7y ago
    Unfortunately I have to say it's not 100% true. The real independence movement was started from the right, look for "Artur Mas". The main slogan back then was "Spain steal from us". It's true though that Communists parties always wanted the independence, but the right parties have driven this process from the very beginning. Lega Nord supports openly the independence of Catalunya because they are based on the same principles. Sure, there're differences, but the main idea is that they don't want to support poorer regions. Obviously they are not going to tell you that, but that's what originated the conflict. In fact, some people in Catalunya (obviously a minority) were openly racist with other regions in Spain years ago (e.g., Extremadura, Andalucia), they even made ads in newspapers. Of course, this is not something that's really talked about.
    - darkwater 7y ago
      What? ERC predates Artur Mas by almost a century. And Artur Mas and his party became "independentists" because there were already lots of real people already pro independence, aiming at their votes. Not the other way round. I'd say that there's a huge number of independentists nowadays despite Artur Mas (and Jordi Pujol)
hos234 7y ago
They want their own Football team.
Xylakant 7y ago
> Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU? Afaics, they’re not trying to break away from the EU (which wouldn’t make any sense economically), but that may be an unintended side effect. Spain would have to agree to opening talks between a new sovereign country and the eu. I just can’t see that happen.
jka 7y ago
Wikipedia and this BBC article cover the background behind the movement and the potential relationship between an independent Catalonia and the EU (in particular, Spain as an EU member would need to agree to Catalonia entering the EU) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41474674 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41474674
_0ffh 7y ago
IIRC they are one of the richer parts of Spain, which is why their move for independence has been likened to that of the late Lega Nord in Italy.
swebs 7y ago
>Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU? I believe the plan is to enter the EU after breaking from Spain.
- throwaway8756 7y ago
  Which it's very much impossible without agreement.
ajdlinux 7y ago
It would also enhance gridlock within various EU bodies and structures that require unanimous approval of all member states. (One of the issues they've had to manage with the several Brexit extensions is how to make sure the UK doesn't make it impossible for EU institutions to run by deciding to veto things.) It's best for the EU to not have two member states with a major, fundamental dispute about sovereignty. And of course, due to the aforementioned rules about unanimity, if Catalonia were to obtain independence their admission to the EU would be entirely dependent on Spain's acquiescence.
darkwater 7y ago
> Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU? Short answer: no, just from Spain. Long answer: while the biggest part of the movement is pro-Europe there are voices from the left-most & anti-capitalist part which are against EU because they see as an union that put money first instead of people. But as said, they are a minority among the independentists.
mcv 7y ago
At least some Catalan separatists feel Spain is denying them their own culture and forcing Spanish culture on them. Bull fighting, for example, is something Catalonia banned at some point, after which Madrid wanted to overturn the ban because they considered bull fighting Spanish cultural heritage.
- throwaway8756 7y ago
  Bull fighting was prohibited because it was originated in Spain (not the official reason though, just speculation). "Correbous" a very cruel sport as well, which it was originated in Catalunya, it's, in contrast, very much supported. So I'm not really sure it's two very different cultures.
  - UserIsUnused 7y ago
    Running away from restrained bulls is not the same as torturing and killing a bull for show.
    - throwaway8756 7y ago
      Did you look for images? They torture the bulls by attaching burning items to their horns. Running away is the least significant part. It's a very cruel activity that end up with a lot of dead bulls. BTW, I also hate bull fighting.
      - mcv 7y ago
        Apart from the animal abuse issue (which is also what I care most about), it's also a cultural issue. If Catalans consider bull running to be Catalan heritage, but not bull fighting, they might allow the former and ban the latter. But Spain considers both Spanish cultural heritage, so wants both to be allowed anywhere in Spain.
UserIsUnused 7y ago
Just Spain not EU. It's the typical second biggest city not having internal relevance compared to the capital even though it's as good, together with the common claim of everything happens in the capital, decisions are there, most money stays there, etc. Also, it's slightly different culture, language, etc. And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war. Discontent keeps happening, catalonian patriots gets in power, central government remembers that constitution prohibits secession, they do a referendum anyway, (90% win for getting out), get arrested/exiled, with draws bigger attention to the cause, Streisand effect and all that. Spain issn't really an united nation, you have actual separatist terrorists in Basque (which have a peace treaty recently), the new separatists of Catalonia, Andaluzia has seen the rise of dissidents as well. Add to the fact that some regions actually have their own language. I remember one time while crossing the border by car, seeing a tourist information sign vandalized because in was written in Castillan (language of the capital, main "spanish" language). Beneath all the vandalous paint, was a sentence: "speak the <local-language>". And this was not in one of those more dissindent regions. Later I got into the city, and every sign was in multiple languages
- buboard 7y ago
  Ok the catalans may be arrogant, but did something significantly change in recent years? Usually these bravado-led movements are a result of stagnant economy like in Italy.
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    The Spanish economy is in the gutters. That probably doesn't help.
  - UserIsUnused 7y ago
    Well, there was the global crisis, that Spain was affected. Besides that, I don't think that there was anything big, it's just with the rise of things like populism and patriotism, it's normal for these movements to rise as well, as they already existed. It was just short of some leaders, and opportunity. The secession of Catalonia actually appeals to me, but these seems more manipulation by their charismatic leader than an actual resolve. They could do it slowly building the movement and trying to amend the constitution. No rush. Rushing was just trying to get more money which got over their heads as the support and reaction was bigger than expected.
sgt 7y ago
Why doesn't Spain just give them more autonomy? Or is Spain actually the "bad guys" here ?
- throwaway8756 7y ago
  Spain is one of the most decentralised countries in the world. Catalan government (not all catalans by the way, around 50%), at this point, only want independence.
- reallydontask 7y ago
  There is little more autonomy to be given and still be part of Spain (although it's a matter of perspective) There is some info on the wikipedia page for Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Administrative_divisions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Administrative_divisions
- hevi_jos 7y ago
  Because Spain is currently one of the more decentralized country in the world? Spain created the "autonomias" in order to appease secessionists. Not a brilliant idea given them the control of the Education(that teaches them that Spain robs them and creates fiction about their past, all while rejecting Spanish), of the Police(so their friends could close roads without consequences), put levies to shops that used Spanish in their signs and tracks and harass those kids that use Spanish in School's recess. BTW, the secessionist want to own Catalonia, but it feels too less to them, they also want Valencia and the Balearic Islands. And if you let them a big part of Aragón.
- joscas 7y ago
  Catalans voted in a referendum a new regional constitution which was overturned by the Spanish constitutional court. This triggered support for independence. Catalans don't manage, their taxes, nor their airports, or their trains. Everything that really matters is managed by the central government, it's self-rule on paper but not in reality.
ahachete 7y ago
There are many alleged reasons why some people from Catalonia want to secede from Spain. They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. Similar to Brexit. Probably, same wrong perspective. Irrespective of this, Spanish Constitution has a very strong enforcement of Spain's sovereignty and unity. It belongs to all Spanish people. So if that is to be altered --i.e., any region wants to secede-- is a decision that must involve every Spanish citizen. So in order to proceed, either everybody needs to participate in such a decision, or the Constitution needs to be amended. The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally". That's against the Constitution, and the State needs to protect itself from that. Anyway, if Catalonia would eventually and legally secede from Spain, it will be automatically out of the EU. And in order to gain access to the EU, it would need to apply and be approved unanimously by every EU country. In other words, Spain may veto that. My opinion: it's shooting yourself on the feet. I believe they never intended to secede, they were just pushing this road hard to negotiate better financing and money for Catalonia. They have been doing this for many decades. But this time they took it too far, lost control of it, and now they don't know how to back track it.
- UserIsUnused 7y ago
  They could have gone the legal route, and push to amend the constitution first. Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.
  - AllegedAlec 7y ago
    Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.
    - throwaway8756 7y ago
johnsteward 7y ago
An interesting issue in the eventual independence of Catalonia is that, by law, Spanish citizens remain Spanish even if they are also citizens of another country. Therefore Catalans would not lose their Spanish passports, and would be therefore EU members, even if Catalonia was independent from Spain. And the children of Spanish citizens are by law also Spanish citizens. The strange case of a non-EU nation with 100% EU citizens in it would be an interesting development in geopolitics.
captainbland 7y ago
I think a big part of it is the history of the Franco dictatorship and its persecution of Catalonian culture and people. That kind of thing leaves a scar.
tcard 7y ago
> why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I won't actually answer the question (it's complex, and others have done so already). I just want to make sure people understand that we don't really know what "Catalonia" wants because no real referendum has taken place. Catalonia is a heterogeneous society that has attracted lots of immigration from poorer regions of Spain over the last decades, and claiming that "Catalans" want independence without doubt can only be done by adopting a dangerously ethnocentric meaning of "Catalan". If you look at regional elections, separatist parties have consistently achieved less than 50% of the votes, even when posed as "plesbicitary" [1] on the issue. They've only managed to form governments because, as it's often the case, the electoral system over-represents rural areas. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Catalan_regional_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Catalan_regional_election
grimborg 7y ago
Here's an explanation of the reasons. http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/background/why-a-vote/ http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/background/why-a-vote/
- yiyus 7y ago
  An explanation from one of the sides. There are many things in that text that could be discussed. For example, the "attacks against the education system and linguistic rights". I dare you to explain that in detail.
hevi_jos 7y ago
Catalonia and Basque country are the most developed places in Spain, from an industrial point of view. Historically there were the biggest supporters of Spain, specially in the times of the Empire. For example Cuba was controlled mostly by Catalans. After losing Cuba and Philippines there were lots of social unrest in Spain, and specially Catalonia. Lots of people moving into cities. It was the time of romanticism, nationalism, communism and anarchism. Catalonia had lots of anarchist combined with a rich bourgeoisie that had repatriated a fair amount of the wealth from Cuba. The rich bourgeoisie wanted more autonomy so they could be richer and not share their wealth with less developed parts of Spain,(while preserving the market to continue selling to them) like Andalusia and Extremadura, that were extremely poor at the start of 20th century. In 1934 they supported a secessionist movement to declare independence of Spain trying to take advantage of the communist movement to declare Spain a dictatorship of the proletariat that only got traction in the north of Spain, in Asturias. Those that took part of the movement went to jail. In 1936 the left coalition of Frente popular, that included communist and anarchist wins the elections, and make an amnesty freeing all the people from the 1934 coup. They start burning churches, raping nuns, and killing people (more than 700 in over 7000 incidents). The gobertment does nothing, because they are sympathetic to them, or they just want revolution coming(like Largo Caballero). That leads to the revolt of the army and the start of the Spanish civil war. In Catalonia the supporter of the secessionist movement in 1934, Companys, is in charge. This led to terror in Catalonia, in which the religious people were exterminated, something that Companys was specially proud of and made the bourgeoisie specially afraid as the anarchists went after them. This made bourgeoisie later one of the biggest supporters of Franco, the irony. After Franco won the war there was a very centralized State in Spain. When Franco died, they decided to give autonomy to all the provinces in order to appease the nationalist(they did not supported Independence openly at the time). In Catalonia secessionist were a minority at the time. Most people wanted more autonomy(who doesn't). The man who controlled Catalonia, an extremely corrupt person called Pujol was very secessionist and started creating a network of secessionist in all local public institutions. At the time the Spanish gobertment of Felipe Gonzalez was also very corrupt, and the King of Spain(that pocketed deals commissions of energy deals with Saudi Arabia). They knew each other and made sure that Justice did not act upon them. Controlling the education, local TV, and most of the economic system in Catalonia make more people become secessionist, specially young people. Now it has become clear that Pujol was a tremendous corrupt person and Justice went after them, the guys that pocketed from 3% to 10% of all public money in Catalonia for decades. Catalonia and Andalucia had been extremely corrupt for a long time. That(most people getting to know the corruption) destroyed the nationalist party in the elections and made them what we call "flee fordward" with independence, even when there are not enough people yet for it to success without a doubt. If they get independence, with their own justice system, they will be able to continue doing what they have been doing for a long time. Right now most supporters of it are kids, 14, 16 years old and people under 30 years old. They had been promised that they will be like Switzerland rich, part of the EU of course, with all the advantages they have today for being part of Spain(like exporting 70% of their products there)without all the disadvantages. The EU has said that an independent Catalonia will not enter the EU.
gumby 7y ago
Ignoring the Catalan issue specifically: the members of the EU are themselves states so would be unhappy with the precedent of any of the other states breaking apart as it might set a precedent. Thus none of the arguments against Scottish independence from the UK was that Spain said it would oppose Scotland joining the EU on its own as that would be a precedent for Catalonia. (Scotland might get a “sympathy pass” if they tried it post brexit, but perhaps not). I agree that the EUnwoukd operate better with a larger number of smaller members but there’s no chance of that in my lifetime, unfortunately.

by mikece 7y ago

ahbyb 7y ago

It's something similar to north/south Italy: they are tired of sharing their monies with the poorer regions of Spain, which they regard as lazy and stupid.

darkwater 7y ago
Being an Italian living in Catalonia for a few years now I absolutely say that it's not the same at all. While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties in Catalonia were basically left-wing (and now they cover almost all of the spectrum), and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs". Having said that, there are obviously Catalans on the pro-independence side that can just be Lega Nord supporters. But the funny thing is that there are lots of Spaniards/Catalans against independence that can be Lega Nord supporters as well.
- ahbyb 7y ago
  >and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs" Then imagine how it is for the poor regions of Spain.
  - darkwater 7y ago
    But Catalonia would still help them via European Union. And in general money is not that relevant on this topic, at least on the catalan side, as it was just a few years ago.
- throwaway8756 7y ago
  Unfortunately I have to say it's not 100% true. The real independence movement was started from the right, look for "Artur Mas". The main slogan back then was "Spain steal from us". It's true though that Communists parties always wanted the independence, but the right parties have driven this process from the very beginning. Lega Nord supports openly the independence of Catalunya because they are based on the same principles. Sure, there're differences, but the main idea is that they don't want to support poorer regions. Obviously they are not going to tell you that, but that's what originated the conflict. In fact, some people in Catalunya (obviously a minority) were openly racist with other regions in Spain years ago (e.g., Extremadura, Andalucia), they even made ads in newspapers. Of course, this is not something that's really talked about.
  - darkwater 7y ago
    What? ERC predates Artur Mas by almost a century. And Artur Mas and his party became "independentists" because there were already lots of real people already pro independence, aiming at their votes. Not the other way round. I'd say that there's a huge number of independentists nowadays despite Artur Mas (and Jordi Pujol)

hos234 7y ago

They want their own Football team.

Xylakant 7y ago

> Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU? Afaics, they’re not trying to break away from the EU (which wouldn’t make any sense economically), but that may be an unintended side effect. Spain would have to agree to opening talks between a new sovereign country and the eu. I just can’t see that happen.

jka 7y ago

Wikipedia and this BBC article cover the background behind the movement and the potential relationship between an independent Catalonia and the EU (in particular, Spain as an EU member would need to agree to Catalonia entering the EU) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41474674 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41474674

_0ffh 7y ago

IIRC they are one of the richer parts of Spain, which is why their move for independence has been likened to that of the late Lega Nord in Italy.

swebs 7y ago

>Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU? I believe the plan is to enter the EU after breaking from Spain.

throwaway8756 7y ago
Which it's very much impossible without agreement.

ajdlinux 7y ago

It would also enhance gridlock within various EU bodies and structures that require unanimous approval of all member states. (One of the issues they've had to manage with the several Brexit extensions is how to make sure the UK doesn't make it impossible for EU institutions to run by deciding to veto things.) It's best for the EU to not have two member states with a major, fundamental dispute about sovereignty. And of course, due to the aforementioned rules about unanimity, if Catalonia were to obtain independence their admission to the EU would be entirely dependent on Spain's acquiescence.

darkwater 7y ago

> Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU? Short answer: no, just from Spain. Long answer: while the biggest part of the movement is pro-Europe there are voices from the left-most & anti-capitalist part which are against EU because they see as an union that put money first instead of people. But as said, they are a minority among the independentists.

mcv 7y ago

At least some Catalan separatists feel Spain is denying them their own culture and forcing Spanish culture on them. Bull fighting, for example, is something Catalonia banned at some point, after which Madrid wanted to overturn the ban because they considered bull fighting Spanish cultural heritage.

throwaway8756 7y ago
Bull fighting was prohibited because it was originated in Spain (not the official reason though, just speculation). "Correbous" a very cruel sport as well, which it was originated in Catalunya, it's, in contrast, very much supported. So I'm not really sure it's two very different cultures.
- UserIsUnused 7y ago
  Running away from restrained bulls is not the same as torturing and killing a bull for show.
  - throwaway8756 7y ago
    Did you look for images? They torture the bulls by attaching burning items to their horns. Running away is the least significant part. It's a very cruel activity that end up with a lot of dead bulls. BTW, I also hate bull fighting.
    - mcv 7y ago
      Apart from the animal abuse issue (which is also what I care most about), it's also a cultural issue. If Catalans consider bull running to be Catalan heritage, but not bull fighting, they might allow the former and ban the latter. But Spain considers both Spanish cultural heritage, so wants both to be allowed anywhere in Spain.

UserIsUnused 7y ago

Just Spain not EU. It's the typical second biggest city not having internal relevance compared to the capital even though it's as good, together with the common claim of everything happens in the capital, decisions are there, most money stays there, etc. Also, it's slightly different culture, language, etc. And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war. Discontent keeps happening, catalonian patriots gets in power, central government remembers that constitution prohibits secession, they do a referendum anyway, (90% win for getting out), get arrested/exiled, with draws bigger attention to the cause, Streisand effect and all that. Spain issn't really an united nation, you have actual separatist terrorists in Basque (which have a peace treaty recently), the new separatists of Catalonia, Andaluzia has seen the rise of dissidents as well. Add to the fact that some regions actually have their own language. I remember one time while crossing the border by car, seeing a tourist information sign vandalized because in was written in Castillan (language of the capital, main "spanish" language). Beneath all the vandalous paint, was a sentence: "speak the <local-language>". And this was not in one of those more dissindent regions. Later I got into the city, and every sign was in multiple languages

buboard 7y ago
Ok the catalans may be arrogant, but did something significantly change in recent years? Usually these bravado-led movements are a result of stagnant economy like in Italy.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  The Spanish economy is in the gutters. That probably doesn't help.
- UserIsUnused 7y ago
  Well, there was the global crisis, that Spain was affected. Besides that, I don't think that there was anything big, it's just with the rise of things like populism and patriotism, it's normal for these movements to rise as well, as they already existed. It was just short of some leaders, and opportunity. The secession of Catalonia actually appeals to me, but these seems more manipulation by their charismatic leader than an actual resolve. They could do it slowly building the movement and trying to amend the constitution. No rush. Rushing was just trying to get more money which got over their heads as the support and reaction was bigger than expected.

sgt 7y ago

Why doesn't Spain just give them more autonomy? Or is Spain actually the "bad guys" here ?

throwaway8756 7y ago
Spain is one of the most decentralised countries in the world. Catalan government (not all catalans by the way, around 50%), at this point, only want independence.
reallydontask 7y ago
There is little more autonomy to be given and still be part of Spain (although it's a matter of perspective) There is some info on the wikipedia page for Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Administrative_divisions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Administrative_divisions
hevi_jos 7y ago
Because Spain is currently one of the more decentralized country in the world? Spain created the "autonomias" in order to appease secessionists. Not a brilliant idea given them the control of the Education(that teaches them that Spain robs them and creates fiction about their past, all while rejecting Spanish), of the Police(so their friends could close roads without consequences), put levies to shops that used Spanish in their signs and tracks and harass those kids that use Spanish in School's recess. BTW, the secessionist want to own Catalonia, but it feels too less to them, they also want Valencia and the Balearic Islands. And if you let them a big part of Aragón.
joscas 7y ago
Catalans voted in a referendum a new regional constitution which was overturned by the Spanish constitutional court. This triggered support for independence. Catalans don't manage, their taxes, nor their airports, or their trains. Everything that really matters is managed by the central government, it's self-rule on paper but not in reality.

ahachete 7y ago

There are many alleged reasons why some people from Catalonia want to secede from Spain. They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. Similar to Brexit. Probably, same wrong perspective. Irrespective of this, Spanish Constitution has a very strong enforcement of Spain's sovereignty and unity. It belongs to all Spanish people. So if that is to be altered --i.e., any region wants to secede-- is a decision that must involve every Spanish citizen. So in order to proceed, either everybody needs to participate in such a decision, or the Constitution needs to be amended. The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally". That's against the Constitution, and the State needs to protect itself from that. Anyway, if Catalonia would eventually and legally secede from Spain, it will be automatically out of the EU. And in order to gain access to the EU, it would need to apply and be approved unanimously by every EU country. In other words, Spain may veto that. My opinion: it's shooting yourself on the feet. I believe they never intended to secede, they were just pushing this road hard to negotiate better financing and money for Catalonia. They have been doing this for many decades. But this time they took it too far, lost control of it, and now they don't know how to back track it.

UserIsUnused 7y ago
They could have gone the legal route, and push to amend the constitution first. Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature. There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution. - They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth - They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen. - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.
  - throwaway8756 7y ago

johnsteward 7y ago

An interesting issue in the eventual independence of Catalonia is that, by law, Spanish citizens remain Spanish even if they are also citizens of another country. Therefore Catalans would not lose their Spanish passports, and would be therefore EU members, even if Catalonia was independent from Spain. And the children of Spanish citizens are by law also Spanish citizens. The strange case of a non-EU nation with 100% EU citizens in it would be an interesting development in geopolitics.

captainbland 7y ago

I think a big part of it is the history of the Franco dictatorship and its persecution of Catalonian culture and people. That kind of thing leaves a scar.

tcard 7y ago

> why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I won't actually answer the question (it's complex, and others have done so already). I just want to make sure people understand that we don't really know what "Catalonia" wants because no real referendum has taken place. Catalonia is a heterogeneous society that has attracted lots of immigration from poorer regions of Spain over the last decades, and claiming that "Catalans" want independence without doubt can only be done by adopting a dangerously ethnocentric meaning of "Catalan". If you look at regional elections, separatist parties have consistently achieved less than 50% of the votes, even when posed as "plesbicitary" [1] on the issue. They've only managed to form governments because, as it's often the case, the electoral system over-represents rural areas. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Catalan_regional_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Catalan_regional_election

grimborg 7y ago

Here's an explanation of the reasons. http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/background/why-a-vote/ http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/background/why-a-vote/

yiyus 7y ago
An explanation from one of the sides. There are many things in that text that could be discussed. For example, the "attacks against the education system and linguistic rights". I dare you to explain that in detail.

hevi_jos 7y ago

Catalonia and Basque country are the most developed places in Spain, from an industrial point of view. Historically there were the biggest supporters of Spain, specially in the times of the Empire. For example Cuba was controlled mostly by Catalans. After losing Cuba and Philippines there were lots of social unrest in Spain, and specially Catalonia. Lots of people moving into cities. It was the time of romanticism, nationalism, communism and anarchism. Catalonia had lots of anarchist combined with a rich bourgeoisie that had repatriated a fair amount of the wealth from Cuba. The rich bourgeoisie wanted more autonomy so they could be richer and not share their wealth with less developed parts of Spain,(while preserving the market to continue selling to them) like Andalusia and Extremadura, that were extremely poor at the start of 20th century. In 1934 they supported a secessionist movement to declare independence of Spain trying to take advantage of the communist movement to declare Spain a dictatorship of the proletariat that only got traction in the north of Spain, in Asturias. Those that took part of the movement went to jail. In 1936 the left coalition of Frente popular, that included communist and anarchist wins the elections, and make an amnesty freeing all the people from the 1934 coup. They start burning churches, raping nuns, and killing people (more than 700 in over 7000 incidents). The gobertment does nothing, because they are sympathetic to them, or they just want revolution coming(like Largo Caballero). That leads to the revolt of the army and the start of the Spanish civil war. In Catalonia the supporter of the secessionist movement in 1934, Companys, is in charge. This led to terror in Catalonia, in which the religious people were exterminated, something that Companys was specially proud of and made the bourgeoisie specially afraid as the anarchists went after them. This made bourgeoisie later one of the biggest supporters of Franco, the irony. After Franco won the war there was a very centralized State in Spain. When Franco died, they decided to give autonomy to all the provinces in order to appease the nationalist(they did not supported Independence openly at the time). In Catalonia secessionist were a minority at the time. Most people wanted more autonomy(who doesn't). The man who controlled Catalonia, an extremely corrupt person called Pujol was very secessionist and started creating a network of secessionist in all local public institutions. At the time the Spanish gobertment of Felipe Gonzalez was also very corrupt, and the King of Spain(that pocketed deals commissions of energy deals with Saudi Arabia). They knew each other and made sure that Justice did not act upon them. Controlling the education, local TV, and most of the economic system in Catalonia make more people become secessionist, specially young people. Now it has become clear that Pujol was a tremendous corrupt person and Justice went after them, the guys that pocketed from 3% to 10% of all public money in Catalonia for decades. Catalonia and Andalucia had been extremely corrupt for a long time. That(most people getting to know the corruption) destroyed the nationalist party in the elections and made them what we call "flee fordward" with independence, even when there are not enough people yet for it to success without a doubt. If they get independence, with their own justice system, they will be able to continue doing what they have been doing for a long time. Right now most supporters of it are kids, 14, 16 years old and people under 30 years old. They had been promised that they will be like Switzerland rich, part of the EU of course, with all the advantages they have today for being part of Spain(like exporting 70% of their products there)without all the disadvantages. The EU has said that an independent Catalonia will not enter the EU.

gumby 7y ago

Ignoring the Catalan issue specifically: the members of the EU are themselves states so would be unhappy with the precedent of any of the other states breaking apart as it might set a precedent. Thus none of the arguments against Scottish independence from the UK was that Spain said it would oppose Scotland joining the EU on its own as that would be a precedent for Catalonia. (Scotland might get a “sympathy pass” if they tried it post brexit, but perhaps not). I agree that the EUnwoukd operate better with a larger number of smaller members but there’s no chance of that in my lifetime, unfortunately.