18 ms·

Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

45 points by charlysl 7y ago

UserIsUnused 7y ago
So, will Streisand Effect manifest? I think it already is.
- buboard 7y ago
  I presume the secessionists are actually a minority. The effect is already in full force
  - UserIsUnused 7y ago
    90% win on a referendum that less than half population attended has it was deemed has an unlawful referendum. But it was still over 90% result.
    - buboard 7y ago
      Are there actual polls on the ground? The referendum was obviously biased. If things were not so heated, a non-binding referendum might be the right choice , but this is not going to happen
  - gwd 7y ago
    > I presume the secessionists are actually a minority. I've got a colleague in Catalonia. At the time of the referendum, he was working here in the UK, and he went back to vote in the attempted referendum; and he participated in the general strike a few weeks ago after the sentencing of the leaders who ran the referendum. He's a level-headed, laid-back kind of guy, not at all the type that gets worked up and inflamed over trifles. If he's upset enough at Madrid to participate in this, I think Madrid are the bad guys here. I don't think he necessarily wants to secede per se, but from his perspective they've basically tried everything else.
ahbyb 7y ago
Translation: Spain will enforce the law that says that citizen data must be kept in servers in the EU instead of digital havens, which is what the Catalan government is doing.
- swebs 7y ago
  >Spain will enforce the law Spain will create that law
  - ahbyb 7y ago
    Which strikes me as odd, because I recall there is a European law that says that personal data of European citizens must remain within the EU.
    - buboard 7y ago
      No.
    - ajdlinux 7y ago
      No - the GDPR regulates transfers of EU citizen data outside of the EU, but it by no means prohibits it. To summarise - the organisation involved follows the rules by transferring data only to other countries that have equivalently strong laws, or for other countries, by using Binding Corporate Rules or approved standard contractual conditions to establish internal corporate policy that meets EU standards. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/international-transfers/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio...
    - bluGill 7y ago
      Check with a lawyer for details, but the best way to describe it is the EU can do little about data once it is outside of the EU: their laws don't apply elsewhere. They have ways around this. If you have a EU presence (ie an office) that presence gets into trouble if data is sent outside the EU without a lot of care - this includes care to ensure the foreign government of where you send the data won't get it (which makes most companies not transmit data outside the EU if at all possible). None of the above applies to this case though because presumably it is the person in question sending his own data outside the EU. There isn't much they can do about that.
mikece 7y ago
Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the EU? Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU?
- ahbyb 7y ago
  It's something similar to north/south Italy: they are tired of sharing their monies with the poorer regions of Spain, which they regard as lazy and stupid.
  - darkwater 7y ago
    Being an Italian living in Catalonia for a few years now I absolutely say that it's not the same at all. While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties in Catalonia were basically left-wing (and now they cover almost all of the spectrum), and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs". Having said that, there are obviously Catalans on the pro-independence side that can just be Lega Nord supporters. But the funny thing is that there are lots of Spaniards/Catalans against independence that can be Lega Nord supporters as well.
    - ahbyb 7y ago
      >and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs" Then imagine how it is for the poor regions of Spain.
      - darkwater 7y ago
johnchristopher 7y ago
The article isn't going deep enough in the details. > In summer 2018, Puigneró said Catalonia must create "a digital nation in the form of a republic" ahead of implementing the Catalan Republic in "physical form." By allowing Catalonian citizens or Catalonian administration to host data outside the EU ? How does that create a digital nation when your limbs are all over the world in an ethereal form ? I don't understand what's going on.
- insomniacity 7y ago
  You're right that the article is lacking. I suspect the idea is to have digital infrastructure out of legal reach of the Spanish government - then that's your foundation for the physical changes.
- coldtea 7y ago
  It's not about where the data are, but which organization is hosting them and for what purpose. If one wanted to make a "digital freedonia" they could start a service called "freedonia citizens registry" for example, and have people register there, coordinate, talk, etc -- whether the server was in Japan or Argentina or California wouldn't matter much for those purposes... The "host outside" part is so that the Spanish government can't just get access to it or storm the datacenter. Otherwise the location is not important as to the purpose.
  - yiyus 7y ago
    The location is important if it involves data from the public administration. Nobody can avoid that "freedonia citizens registry" you talk about, but the regional government cannot take official census data and use it to fill Fredonia's database.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Nobody can avoid that "freedonia citizens registry" you talk about, but the regional government cannot take official census data and use it to fill Fredonia's database. What's stopping them? (besides a jurisdiction they don't recognize and want to secede from)?
andy_ppp 7y ago
The aggressive attitude towards Catalan separatism by the Spanish government seems that it will make independence inevitable...
- throwaway8756 7y ago
  To be honest, I think we already are in a point of no-return. Not necessarily to the independence though, but who knows...
  - arijun 7y ago
    What's the alternative to independence if they cannot return to the status quo?
    - swebs 7y ago
      Civil war.
      - throwaway8756 7y ago
        yeah, either that or splitting the region in two parts. Who knows, it's a very difficult situation at the moment.
    - szeptik 7y ago
      I think a new Constitution is the only solution. It could be possible to reform the Spanish State to make it federal or confederal and hopefully this would be accepted by all the political forces involved. However, this new Constitution would have to be voted by all of Spanish citizens in a referendum, not only the Catalans.
- yiyus 7y ago
  What is aggressive about not allowing official data to be stored in foreign servers? I wonder if, for example, the US would allow the government of Oregon to store official data about their citizens in Russian servers they cannot access. The Spanish governments (current and previous ones) have made many mistakes, and taken measures that can be discussed and even plainly rejected, but this one seems quite reasonable to me.
iagovar 7y ago
Well I didn't know that we were going to link straight up propaganda here in HN. I wonder how much time until we bring Sputnik and RT. For those who didn't know this site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_News_Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_News_Agency It has very close ties with Carles Puigdemont, which has been his director once.
- Hermel 7y ago
  If you think something in the article is factually wrong, it would be kind to let us know. News should be judged by their content, and not by the messenger.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- charlysl 7y ago
  OP here. For what it's worth, I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so the last thing I would want is to unwittingly spread pro-independence propaganda. I am aware of what you said, but it was the only article in English that I could find about this news. I shared this link because I am interested in the debate it might spawn here rather than because of its content.
- ryanlol 7y ago
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professorTuring 7y ago
Tsunami Democratic is being investigated by Spanish authorities for promoting public disorders and criminal activities. So Spain is making what is need to to prevent criminal activities and (further) public disorders in Catalonia. I don't know how some Catalonian citizens are letting themselves be influenced by some corrupt politicians trying to enrich theirselves and avoid prison. Check out democracy index in Spain (ranked 19th): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index that is a better score than France, USA, Japan... For people outside Spain, don't let yourself be fooled by the name of this group. There is nothing democratic in "tsunami democratic".
- johnsteward 7y ago
  The democracy index for Spain has been on the free fall for some years now. Whether Spain will return to a democratic approach to resolving civic and political issues rather than the current authoritarian approach that curtails civil freedoms for all Spaniards--not just Catalans--remains to be seen. As for Tsunami Democratic, I'm afraid news reports haven't been fair. The disorders and criminal activities--which by the way the Spanish courts are labeling as "terrorism" despite any evidence--have been, by and large, carried out by infiltrated police agents. There is plenty of video footage online demonstrating case after case of police agents dressed as demonstrators, emerging from police vans in a side alley, joining a demonstration and engaging in deplorable behavior.
  - professorTuring 7y ago
    Can you support your statements with evidence? The data I provided is from 2018 and you are making assumptions based on a bunch of people in a country (2MM vs 50MM). What is happening here is that some independentists patrons are paying for PR around the world and you, guys, are only getting one part of the story. You don't know nothing about they teaching fake history to kids, stating Colon is Catalonian, stating that the American flag is based on Catalonian flag... These guys are ridiculous and they have been brainwashing their population for decades. We even have Junqueras (one of the leaders of the movement) telling that genetically, the Catalonian people are better than Spanish people so they need to separate. Today, you have a lot of young people defending what they have been taught without knowing they are defending a bunch of lies.
kuu 7y ago
What will they expect of a state defending itself and trying to keep its integrity? The Spanish constitution says that the country includes Catalonia and that the State must defend the country integrity. Modify the constitution by democracy if you don't like it, but stop promoting undemocratic and unconstitutional ideas.
- yeahforsureman 7y ago
  Well, how about acting like a civilized European state going about it, including respecting the freedoms of speech and assembly as fundamental rights? The recent developments look very bad, and the Spanish state seems to be engaging in blatant abuse of their anti-terrorism laws.
  - yiyus 7y ago
    > respecting the freedoms of speech and assembly as fundamental rights When hasn't this been the case? I see the Catalonian independentists speaking and assembling the whole time. However, blocking airports and train stations, for example, is not a fundamental right.
  - kuu 7y ago
    How about starting respecting the laws by the Catalonian government? The Spanish government allowed right to assembly and free of speech, otherwise there wouldn't be any demonstration...
carokann 7y ago
Separatist movements in Spain are dangerous for the entirety of Europe. The world is much less stable nowadays and the last thing you'd want is an armed civil-war like conflict in the heart of Europe. But i'm a Turk that grew up watching news of my fellow citizens killed by separatists on the TV so maybe i'm a little bit more sensitive to this issue.
- throwaway8756 7y ago
  You are not wrong. In fact, there're some suspicious that third countries support independence movements directly or indirectly. If you think about it, nowadays it's far easier to break a country from inside than starting a war.
  - carokann 7y ago
    Balkanization isn't helping anyone, won't help Spain or Catalonians either. The problem relies within our changing political identity. It used to be religion based for so long, which was splintering alright but still was more unifying than nationalism. Now people of any ethnic identity demands a land for it and third parties sponsor them for their own interests. How reasonable is that? It just causes more geopolitical chaos and resource bottlenecks. EU and the USA isn't faring too well with multiculturalism either so our civilization is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
mamborambo 7y ago
The idea of "digital republic" is fascinating. Politically it may be controversial, but technically it deserves further study. As the world shifts to the nomadic, post-industrial, cloud-based societies, countries like Estonia with e-residency may become popular for people to opt-in to join countries with the best social compact.
- professorTuring 7y ago
  Yes it is! And definitely we will see more of these in the future and the challenges they bring to the table. Said that, it is a bureaucracy nightmare. Just imagine working as a X citizen for a Y enterprise living in the Z country. Globalization at its best!
olodus 7y ago
I was interested in this because I remember there being work to get a mesh network using ipfs or something running in Catalonia. But the article mentions nothing about it. Anyone knows if that is still ongoing? Found something from 10 months ago about it here on HN. Would think that would only have gotten more relevant these days. And if it is blocking they are worried about...
- sewercake 7y ago
  Are you thinking of guifi?
charlysl 7y ago
OP here. Given that I posted this, I think I that I should share my opinion. I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so hopelesly biased, I fear. I want to keep this short and cut to what I believe is the essence of the problem and how I think that all this will play out. Given the power assymetry, hugely favourable to Spain, the only chance for Catalonian independence is to get external support that will twist Spain's arm. Here is where they are concentrating their efforts. They are trying this on many fronts, some legal (EU court in Strasbourg), but mostly by trying to keep the conflict in the front page of international media. This has worked partially (by damaging Spain's image abroad), but are still very far from their goals (UN resolution against Spain, EU warning, a big state or leader putting this on their agenda). Part of this is to commit illegal but not quite criminal acts, followed by an outcry and demonstrations when they invariably get banned by Spain. This "digital republic" is just one of many such acts. Spain is actually reacting with enormous restraint, given the propaganda disaster of past mistakes like the riot police during the illegal referendum. Unless forced by the international community, Spain will never allow Catalonian independence, no matter how bad the internal situation, in my opinion. This is a matter of national interest for Spain, an existential threat, because it is one of the largest and richest regions, and because others would follow (at least the Basques), and Spain would just cease to exist. Democracy is crucial, but, as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic. This is not a matter of human rights, or Spain being a fascist state, franquist, or a dictatorship. Spain has never been accused by other EU countries of being undemocratic or not respecting human rights (or, at least, not worse than other nations like France or USA).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- kiliancs 7y ago
  Thanks for sharing your opinion and being open about your bias and reasoning. Thanks also for pointing out the power asymmetry, as this seems to be often left out from the equation and is IMHO a key point. I think we can analyze the same problem from many different points of view and depth, but ultimately for me it boils down to it being immoral for some groups of people to prevent other groups of people from attaining a status of equal --it implies superiority. If the moral solution (embracing self-determination) poses an existential threat to a country (Spain in this case), I think the sensible thing to do is to explore possible solutions such as a gradual application of this right that allows everyone to adjust. Anything else is just asserting the immoral superiority of a group of people over another, and if this legitimized as an existential need, this only strengthens the argument that independence is also an existential need. Because both sides could pull the argument of of "as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic" to justify any mains of attaining their goal. I think this is a very dangerous and destructive point of view. And to clarify, I didn't mean to pontify about what's moral and what isn't. This is just my point of view, though I do think it's fair.
gumby 7y ago
BTW Spain doesn’t have a “president” as the article says — Pedro Sánchez is the acting prime minister. Spain is a monarchy. I assume this is a translation error.
- yiyus 7y ago
  In Spain, Pedro Sánchez is the president of the government, we do not have a prime minister. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_(government_title) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_(government_title)
  - gumby 7y ago
    Thanks! I think it's an unorthodox enough usage in English that IMHO the article should have had a clarification. Actually I would have preferred that the article should have used the "English" term (as it does with, say, President of China) but such procedure is highly inconsistent. Merkel is referred to as "Chancellor", which is literally the English version of for Kanzler though in English "Chancellor" now means something quite different). Likewise the President of Iran is called President even though there is an executive agent above him/her (less powerful than the Spanish President).
    - yiyus 7y ago
      In your defense, I would bet that changing "president of Spain" to "president of the government of Spain" has been one of the most common corrections not only for foreign journalists, but also Spanish ones.

45 points by charlysl 7y ago

UserIsUnused 7y ago

So, will Streisand Effect manifest? I think it already is.

buboard 7y ago
I presume the secessionists are actually a minority. The effect is already in full force
- UserIsUnused 7y ago
  90% win on a referendum that less than half population attended has it was deemed has an unlawful referendum. But it was still over 90% result.
  - buboard 7y ago
    Are there actual polls on the ground? The referendum was obviously biased. If things were not so heated, a non-binding referendum might be the right choice , but this is not going to happen
- gwd 7y ago
  > I presume the secessionists are actually a minority. I've got a colleague in Catalonia. At the time of the referendum, he was working here in the UK, and he went back to vote in the attempted referendum; and he participated in the general strike a few weeks ago after the sentencing of the leaders who ran the referendum. He's a level-headed, laid-back kind of guy, not at all the type that gets worked up and inflamed over trifles. If he's upset enough at Madrid to participate in this, I think Madrid are the bad guys here. I don't think he necessarily wants to secede per se, but from his perspective they've basically tried everything else.

ahbyb 7y ago

Translation: Spain will enforce the law that says that citizen data must be kept in servers in the EU instead of digital havens, which is what the Catalan government is doing.

swebs 7y ago
>Spain will enforce the law Spain will create that law
- ahbyb 7y ago
  Which strikes me as odd, because I recall there is a European law that says that personal data of European citizens must remain within the EU.
  - buboard 7y ago
    No.
  - ajdlinux 7y ago
    No - the GDPR regulates transfers of EU citizen data outside of the EU, but it by no means prohibits it. To summarise - the organisation involved follows the rules by transferring data only to other countries that have equivalently strong laws, or for other countries, by using Binding Corporate Rules or approved standard contractual conditions to establish internal corporate policy that meets EU standards. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/international-transfers/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio...
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Check with a lawyer for details, but the best way to describe it is the EU can do little about data once it is outside of the EU: their laws don't apply elsewhere. They have ways around this. If you have a EU presence (ie an office) that presence gets into trouble if data is sent outside the EU without a lot of care - this includes care to ensure the foreign government of where you send the data won't get it (which makes most companies not transmit data outside the EU if at all possible). None of the above applies to this case though because presumably it is the person in question sending his own data outside the EU. There isn't much they can do about that.

mikece 7y ago

Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the EU? Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU?

ahbyb 7y ago
It's something similar to north/south Italy: they are tired of sharing their monies with the poorer regions of Spain, which they regard as lazy and stupid.
- darkwater 7y ago
  Being an Italian living in Catalonia for a few years now I absolutely say that it's not the same at all. While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties in Catalonia were basically left-wing (and now they cover almost all of the spectrum), and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs". Having said that, there are obviously Catalans on the pro-independence side that can just be Lega Nord supporters. But the funny thing is that there are lots of Spaniards/Catalans against independence that can be Lega Nord supporters as well.
  - ahbyb 7y ago
    >and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs" Then imagine how it is for the poor regions of Spain.
    - darkwater 7y ago

johnchristopher 7y ago

The article isn't going deep enough in the details. > In summer 2018, Puigneró said Catalonia must create "a digital nation in the form of a republic" ahead of implementing the Catalan Republic in "physical form." By allowing Catalonian citizens or Catalonian administration to host data outside the EU ? How does that create a digital nation when your limbs are all over the world in an ethereal form ? I don't understand what's going on.

insomniacity 7y ago
You're right that the article is lacking. I suspect the idea is to have digital infrastructure out of legal reach of the Spanish government - then that's your foundation for the physical changes.
coldtea 7y ago
It's not about where the data are, but which organization is hosting them and for what purpose. If one wanted to make a "digital freedonia" they could start a service called "freedonia citizens registry" for example, and have people register there, coordinate, talk, etc -- whether the server was in Japan or Argentina or California wouldn't matter much for those purposes... The "host outside" part is so that the Spanish government can't just get access to it or storm the datacenter. Otherwise the location is not important as to the purpose.
- yiyus 7y ago
  The location is important if it involves data from the public administration. Nobody can avoid that "freedonia citizens registry" you talk about, but the regional government cannot take official census data and use it to fill Fredonia's database.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Nobody can avoid that "freedonia citizens registry" you talk about, but the regional government cannot take official census data and use it to fill Fredonia's database. What's stopping them? (besides a jurisdiction they don't recognize and want to secede from)?

andy_ppp 7y ago

The aggressive attitude towards Catalan separatism by the Spanish government seems that it will make independence inevitable...

throwaway8756 7y ago
To be honest, I think we already are in a point of no-return. Not necessarily to the independence though, but who knows...
- arijun 7y ago
  What's the alternative to independence if they cannot return to the status quo?
  - swebs 7y ago
    Civil war.
    - throwaway8756 7y ago
      yeah, either that or splitting the region in two parts. Who knows, it's a very difficult situation at the moment.
  - szeptik 7y ago
    I think a new Constitution is the only solution. It could be possible to reform the Spanish State to make it federal or confederal and hopefully this would be accepted by all the political forces involved. However, this new Constitution would have to be voted by all of Spanish citizens in a referendum, not only the Catalans.
yiyus 7y ago
What is aggressive about not allowing official data to be stored in foreign servers? I wonder if, for example, the US would allow the government of Oregon to store official data about their citizens in Russian servers they cannot access. The Spanish governments (current and previous ones) have made many mistakes, and taken measures that can be discussed and even plainly rejected, but this one seems quite reasonable to me.

iagovar 7y ago

Well I didn't know that we were going to link straight up propaganda here in HN. I wonder how much time until we bring Sputnik and RT. For those who didn't know this site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_News_Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_News_Agency It has very close ties with Carles Puigdemont, which has been his director once.

Hermel 7y ago
If you think something in the article is factually wrong, it would be kind to let us know. News should be judged by their content, and not by the messenger.
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charlysl 7y ago
OP here. For what it's worth, I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so the last thing I would want is to unwittingly spread pro-independence propaganda. I am aware of what you said, but it was the only article in English that I could find about this news. I shared this link because I am interested in the debate it might spawn here rather than because of its content.
ryanlol 7y ago
>I wonder how much time until we bring Sputnik and RT. 1248 points Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hacking Tool https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/12/world/europe/uk-national-health-service-cyberattack.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=1&referer=https://www.rt.com/news/388153-thousands-ransomeware-attacks-worldwide/ 848 points Meteorite crash in Russia http://rt.com/news/meteorite-crash-urals-chelyabinsk-283/ 534 points Stanislav Petrov, a Soviet officer who averted nuclear war, has died https://www.rt.com/news/403625-nuclear-soviet-officer-died/ 515 points Bolivia to file UN complaint over airspace blockade http://rt.com/news/bolivia-un-complaint-plane-601/ 505 points Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport http://rt.com/news/snowden-entry-papers-russia-902/ 395 points Snowden asylum still under review, stays in airport for now http://rt.com/news/snowden-entry-airport-asylum-521/ 371 points 'Everyone in US under virtual surveillance' - NSA whistleblower http://rt.com/usa/news/surveillance-spying-e-mail-citizens-178/ 360 points Anonymous takes down Department of Justice and Universal Music http://rt.com/usa/news/anonymous-doj-universal-sopa-235/ 320 points WikiLeaks wins case against Visa https://rt.com/news/wikileaks-visa-court-case-040/ 306 points Stallman: Facebook is Mass Surveillance https://rt.com/news/richard-stallman-free-software-875/ 289 points Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker http://rt.com/usa/news/swartz-prosecutor-suicide-hacker-050/ 288 points Microsoft helped the NSA bypass encryption, new Snowden leak reveals http://rt.com/usa/microsoft-nsa-snowden-leak-971/ 272 points Obama wins back the right to indefinitely detain under NDAA http://rt.com/usa/obama-ndaa-appeal-suit-229/ 270 points Man-made super flu could kill half of humanity http://rt.com/news/bird-flu-killer-strain-119/ 247 points Small Utah ISP firm stands up to surveillance state http://rt.com/usa/utah-isp-surveillance-state-corporations-925/ 245 points ‘99.99 percent air’: Boeing releases video of revolutionary lightweight metal https://www.rt.com/news/318280-super-light-air-metal/ 241 points ‘America has no functioning democracy at this moment’ – Jimmy Carter on NSA http://rt.com/usa/carter-comment-nsa-snowden-261/ 229 points Twitter’s multi-million dollar US election pitch to RT https://www.rt.com/news/407919-twitter-multi-million-offer-rt/ 178 points FBI admits to flying drones over US without warrants http://rt.com/usa/fbi-drones-over-usa-653/ 175 points Russia may deem civil servants’ use of Gmail, Facebook ‘high treason’ http://rt.com/politics/gmail-facebook-treason-high-521/ 153 points Microsoft wins federal appeal over warrants for data held outside US https://www.rt.com/usa/351052-microsoft-emails-ireland-server/ 152 points Hundreds march in Singapore against website licensing regime http://rt.com/news/singapore-website-protest-bloggers-419/ 151 points Steve Wozniak: Internet should not have gatekeepers or regulators http://rt.com/usa/news/wozniak-interview-dotcom-freedom-396/ 132 points Russia wont extradite Snowden to US Kremlin http://rt.com/news/snowden-russia-extradite-us-634/ 129 points Death of Yuri Gagarin demystified 40 years on http://rt.com/news/gagarin-death-truth-revealed-674/ 128 points Google will ‘de-rank’ RT articles to make them harder to find – Eric Schmidt https://www.rt.com/news/410444-google-alphabet-derank-rt/ 123 points Ecuador has received asylum request from NSA leaker Snowden http://rt.com/news/ecuador-asylum-request-snowden-135/ 106 points Sen. Wyden imagines the White House is willing to reconsider surveillance http://rt.com/usa/nsa-surveillance-wyden-snowden-021/ 103 points Appeals court rules journalists cant keep their sources secret http://rt.com/usa/nyt-risen-leak-espionage-336/ 90 points Sorry is not enough: Bolivia demands EU find culprits behind aerial hijack http://rt.com/news/bolivia-eu-apologies-not-enough-202/ 89 points RMS on evil developers, spying social networks, the legitimacy of Anonymous http://rt.com/news/richard-stallman-free-software-875/ 85 points Russia promises legal action over NSA surveillance scandal http://rt.com/politics/internet-surveillance-western-prevent-928/ 80 points Richard Stallman: Snowden leak a chance for privacy [video] http://rt.com/shows/sophieco/snowden-leak-privacy-surveillance-093/ 80 points FBI releases documents that confirm they proactively spy on anarchists https://rt.com/usa/news/fbi-plante-anarchists-jury-983/ 77 points US 'disappointed' with Hong Kong, asks Latin American countries to stop Snowden http://rt.com/news/snowden-us-disappointed-hong-kong-139/ 72 points Moscow-Cuba flight skirts US airspace, prompts speculation Snowden is aboard http://rt.com/news/snowden-plane-route-cuba-965/ 72 points Anti-corruption blogger Navalny sentenced to 5 years behind bars http://rt.com/news/navalny-verdict-court-guilty-234/ 70 points Scientists successfully test ‘biological supercomputer’ performing complex tasks https://www.rt.com/news/333912-biocomputers-perform-complex-calculations/ 68 points Nobody ‘stealing’ your jobs, you spend too much on wars, Jack Ma tells US https://www.rt.com/business/374289-alibaba-us-jobs-military/ 66 points California man faces 13 years in jail for scribbling anti-bank messages in chalk http://rt.com/usa/california-man-13-prison-banks-237/

professorTuring 7y ago

Tsunami Democratic is being investigated by Spanish authorities for promoting public disorders and criminal activities. So Spain is making what is need to to prevent criminal activities and (further) public disorders in Catalonia. I don't know how some Catalonian citizens are letting themselves be influenced by some corrupt politicians trying to enrich theirselves and avoid prison. Check out democracy index in Spain (ranked 19th): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index that is a better score than France, USA, Japan... For people outside Spain, don't let yourself be fooled by the name of this group. There is nothing democratic in "tsunami democratic".

johnsteward 7y ago
The democracy index for Spain has been on the free fall for some years now. Whether Spain will return to a democratic approach to resolving civic and political issues rather than the current authoritarian approach that curtails civil freedoms for all Spaniards--not just Catalans--remains to be seen. As for Tsunami Democratic, I'm afraid news reports haven't been fair. The disorders and criminal activities--which by the way the Spanish courts are labeling as "terrorism" despite any evidence--have been, by and large, carried out by infiltrated police agents. There is plenty of video footage online demonstrating case after case of police agents dressed as demonstrators, emerging from police vans in a side alley, joining a demonstration and engaging in deplorable behavior.
- professorTuring 7y ago
  Can you support your statements with evidence? The data I provided is from 2018 and you are making assumptions based on a bunch of people in a country (2MM vs 50MM). What is happening here is that some independentists patrons are paying for PR around the world and you, guys, are only getting one part of the story. You don't know nothing about they teaching fake history to kids, stating Colon is Catalonian, stating that the American flag is based on Catalonian flag... These guys are ridiculous and they have been brainwashing their population for decades. We even have Junqueras (one of the leaders of the movement) telling that genetically, the Catalonian people are better than Spanish people so they need to separate. Today, you have a lot of young people defending what they have been taught without knowing they are defending a bunch of lies.

kuu 7y ago

What will they expect of a state defending itself and trying to keep its integrity? The Spanish constitution says that the country includes Catalonia and that the State must defend the country integrity. Modify the constitution by democracy if you don't like it, but stop promoting undemocratic and unconstitutional ideas.

yeahforsureman 7y ago
Well, how about acting like a civilized European state going about it, including respecting the freedoms of speech and assembly as fundamental rights? The recent developments look very bad, and the Spanish state seems to be engaging in blatant abuse of their anti-terrorism laws.
- yiyus 7y ago
  > respecting the freedoms of speech and assembly as fundamental rights When hasn't this been the case? I see the Catalonian independentists speaking and assembling the whole time. However, blocking airports and train stations, for example, is not a fundamental right.
- kuu 7y ago
  How about starting respecting the laws by the Catalonian government? The Spanish government allowed right to assembly and free of speech, otherwise there wouldn't be any demonstration...

carokann 7y ago

Separatist movements in Spain are dangerous for the entirety of Europe. The world is much less stable nowadays and the last thing you'd want is an armed civil-war like conflict in the heart of Europe. But i'm a Turk that grew up watching news of my fellow citizens killed by separatists on the TV so maybe i'm a little bit more sensitive to this issue.

throwaway8756 7y ago
You are not wrong. In fact, there're some suspicious that third countries support independence movements directly or indirectly. If you think about it, nowadays it's far easier to break a country from inside than starting a war.
- carokann 7y ago
  Balkanization isn't helping anyone, won't help Spain or Catalonians either. The problem relies within our changing political identity. It used to be religion based for so long, which was splintering alright but still was more unifying than nationalism. Now people of any ethnic identity demands a land for it and third parties sponsor them for their own interests. How reasonable is that? It just causes more geopolitical chaos and resource bottlenecks. EU and the USA isn't faring too well with multiculturalism either so our civilization is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

mamborambo 7y ago

The idea of "digital republic" is fascinating. Politically it may be controversial, but technically it deserves further study. As the world shifts to the nomadic, post-industrial, cloud-based societies, countries like Estonia with e-residency may become popular for people to opt-in to join countries with the best social compact.

professorTuring 7y ago
Yes it is! And definitely we will see more of these in the future and the challenges they bring to the table. Said that, it is a bureaucracy nightmare. Just imagine working as a X citizen for a Y enterprise living in the Z country. Globalization at its best!

olodus 7y ago

I was interested in this because I remember there being work to get a mesh network using ipfs or something running in Catalonia. But the article mentions nothing about it. Anyone knows if that is still ongoing? Found something from 10 months ago about it here on HN. Would think that would only have gotten more relevant these days. And if it is blocking they are worried about...

sewercake 7y ago
Are you thinking of guifi?

charlysl 7y ago

OP here. Given that I posted this, I think I that I should share my opinion. I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so hopelesly biased, I fear. I want to keep this short and cut to what I believe is the essence of the problem and how I think that all this will play out. Given the power assymetry, hugely favourable to Spain, the only chance for Catalonian independence is to get external support that will twist Spain's arm. Here is where they are concentrating their efforts. They are trying this on many fronts, some legal (EU court in Strasbourg), but mostly by trying to keep the conflict in the front page of international media. This has worked partially (by damaging Spain's image abroad), but are still very far from their goals (UN resolution against Spain, EU warning, a big state or leader putting this on their agenda). Part of this is to commit illegal but not quite criminal acts, followed by an outcry and demonstrations when they invariably get banned by Spain. This "digital republic" is just one of many such acts. Spain is actually reacting with enormous restraint, given the propaganda disaster of past mistakes like the riot police during the illegal referendum. Unless forced by the international community, Spain will never allow Catalonian independence, no matter how bad the internal situation, in my opinion. This is a matter of national interest for Spain, an existential threat, because it is one of the largest and richest regions, and because others would follow (at least the Basques), and Spain would just cease to exist. Democracy is crucial, but, as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic. This is not a matter of human rights, or Spain being a fascist state, franquist, or a dictatorship. Spain has never been accused by other EU countries of being undemocratic or not respecting human rights (or, at least, not worse than other nations like France or USA).

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kiliancs 7y ago
Thanks for sharing your opinion and being open about your bias and reasoning. Thanks also for pointing out the power asymmetry, as this seems to be often left out from the equation and is IMHO a key point. I think we can analyze the same problem from many different points of view and depth, but ultimately for me it boils down to it being immoral for some groups of people to prevent other groups of people from attaining a status of equal --it implies superiority. If the moral solution (embracing self-determination) poses an existential threat to a country (Spain in this case), I think the sensible thing to do is to explore possible solutions such as a gradual application of this right that allows everyone to adjust. Anything else is just asserting the immoral superiority of a group of people over another, and if this legitimized as an existential need, this only strengthens the argument that independence is also an existential need. Because both sides could pull the argument of of "as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic" to justify any mains of attaining their goal. I think this is a very dangerous and destructive point of view. And to clarify, I didn't mean to pontify about what's moral and what isn't. This is just my point of view, though I do think it's fair.

gumby 7y ago

BTW Spain doesn’t have a “president” as the article says — Pedro Sánchez is the acting prime minister. Spain is a monarchy. I assume this is a translation error.

yiyus 7y ago
In Spain, Pedro Sánchez is the president of the government, we do not have a prime minister. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_(government_title) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_(government_title)
- gumby 7y ago
  Thanks! I think it's an unorthodox enough usage in English that IMHO the article should have had a clarification. Actually I would have preferred that the article should have used the "English" term (as it does with, say, President of China) but such procedure is highly inconsistent. Merkel is referred to as "Chancellor", which is literally the English version of for Kanzler though in English "Chancellor" now means something quite different). Likewise the President of Iran is called President even though there is an executive agent above him/her (less powerful than the Spanish President).
  - yiyus 7y ago
    In your defense, I would bet that changing "president of Spain" to "president of the government of Spain" has been one of the most common corrections not only for foreign journalists, but also Spanish ones.