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I remember one friend back in college who constantly asked for -- and received -- deadline extensions on assignments. Usually, there was not what I would consi

I remember one friend back in college who constantly asked for -- and received -- deadline extensions on assignments. Usually, there was not what I would consider a good reason for this (illness, family emergency, etc) but rather something under that student's control (social obligations, just not being happy with the work so far, things like that). For a while, I felt like that student had a superpower: if I asked for any kind of special treatment for such a reason, I would surely just be lectured about personal responsibility. Our other friends were split on this question: either agreeing with me entirely, or not even understanding why one might think that. Until one day, when a professor invited me to his office. It turned out, he wanted to discuss an uncharacteristically poor grade on a particular exam. I was honest, that I simply wasn't feeling myself that day, and I'd been up late for a social engagement the night before. I expected it to just end there. He offered to let me take the exam again, right then in an unoccupied room, and advised me that next time I should just say something. In some ways, that was the most valuable thing I learned in college: that authority figures are just people, and while some are jerks, some legitimately just want to be helpful.

ACow_Adonis 7y ago
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic in characterizing those actions as 'just wanting to be helpful', but until I was a bit more world weary, i would have expected what your professor did in that story to be grounds for instant firing and utterly unacceptable (and would have expected everyone else to share my opinion), as it strikes at the very core of the integrity of an education system.
- jlev1 7y ago
  The vehemence of this response surprises me. First, from the anecdote, there's no particular reason to think this student was the only one who was given a chance to take a make-up test. Second, re: the 'integrity of an education system', there are already all kinds of problems with using tests and exams to evaluate student skill, and one serious flaw is how sensitive they are to random fluctuations -- like being tired or sick the day of the test. Many educators hold this view, and professors often have a lot of flexibility in how they structure their tests (and classes more generally), compared to say, high school teachers. I am curious about the circumstances of the parent post. In a 600-person Psych 101 class, I would agree it would be inappropriate to offer makeup tests (unless they were available to all students). But in a 15-person upper-level class? There's no grading curve, the whole process is basically individualized.
  - ACow_Adonis 7y ago
    You misunderstand (or perhaps I'm miscommunicating) if it comes across as vehemence. I meant it purely as a statement of fact. I'm well aware of the problems of testing and assessment and standard education structures. But the point I was trying to convey was that the way I was brought up, and the popular image of testing and grades and meritocracy I was indoctrinated with, would frame what your teacher did as cheating/academic dishonesty. The idea that such an activity would be done (and not be seen by everyone else as an immediately fireable offence) would have literally an almost unthinkable thought until my late 20s/early 30s and I got a bit more exposure to the world and how academia/ society/ humanity actually works. I think that's a highly relevant point/peice of context when responding to a story about how young students enter these institutions with different assumptions, experience and worldviews...
    - jlev1 7y ago
      I see, that makes sense. Though the phrasing of "how the world works" still makes it sound like you think it's shady and unethical, when I don't (necessarily) think it is.
- rumanator 7y ago
  What core of the education system do you feel was under attack? The ability to assess how much a student learned about a specific subject?
- SamReidHughes 7y ago
  One class I was taking (ToC using Sipser), I forgot to turn in the first two homework assignments on time, so I didn’t turn them in at all. Then I had to make sure to get perfect scores on the rest of the homeworks and exams to get an A. I wound up getting 100’s until a 98 on the final, so I visited the professor’s office at the designated time for questions on the final and asked what I got wrong. After he explained what I did wrong, we got in an argument about whether I should get points for the first two homework assignments, until I relented and accepted that he could give me points for the software part of the assignments without him looking at it, so he could give me an A. On the other hand, when working as an undergrad teaching a Calc II recitation, I had a student miss a quiz I was supposed to administer, because for no reason, he just didn’t show up, so I let him meet me later that week and take it in front of me. My goal was to help him succeed, because getting a zero would really suck. I don’t think it violated the integrity of anything. He wasn’t falsely getting certified as having learned calc II. I think most teachers are willing to do things like this if it’ll make the grade a more accurate representation of the student.
snagglegaggle 7y ago
What the fuck is this? I had to leave due to mental health issues that I wasn't able to get documented at the time, and have been having huge issues returning ever since. Fuck all of this.
- zbobet2012 7y ago
  You've just proven his point though. Authority figures are just... people. And some people are quite nice and understanding and some people are grade capital a assholes. Oh and any bureaucratic process is intentionally trying to weed you out.
  - akhilcacharya 7y ago
    I went to a large state school. This would absolutely not fly in any of the classes I took. It might work in a upper level graduate course but that’s an entirely different situation.
akhilcacharya 7y ago
....what sort of institution was this?
amalcon 7y ago
So, I'd left out some details that I thought were not relevant to the main point, but apparently that lack of detail is distracting. I'll add it back in. The institution in question is a small private university. Not one of the ones you've heard of, but they are at least somewhat comparable to that tier in an academic sense. E.g. I know people who turned down an MIT or equivalent to attend, and they often compete with that tier for grants. The class in question was normally a third- or fourth-year class (the school was pretty flexible with that sort of thing), with fewer than a dozen students and a professor I did not previously know. The social engagement was not a frat party or something. I would not have gone to something like that the night before an exam. Further, I didn't drink in those years anyway, despite being of legal age. It was (I know I'm dating myself) an old friend's last night at home before being deployed in the Iraq war. I drove home, and a bunch of us got together to send him off. I drank soda. Finally, on the question of fairness, the professor did acknowledge this. My score on the make-up was capped to a maximum still less than that earned by anyone else in the class. Even with all of those caveats, it still was something I would not have thought to ask for. I apparently also taught the professor something that day, and he said that going forward he would tell his students up front that he's willing to work with them on that sort of thing.

ACow_Adonis 7y ago

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic in characterizing those actions as 'just wanting to be helpful', but until I was a bit more world weary, i would have expected what your professor did in that story to be grounds for instant firing and utterly unacceptable (and would have expected everyone else to share my opinion), as it strikes at the very core of the integrity of an education system.

jlev1 7y ago
The vehemence of this response surprises me. First, from the anecdote, there's no particular reason to think this student was the only one who was given a chance to take a make-up test. Second, re: the 'integrity of an education system', there are already all kinds of problems with using tests and exams to evaluate student skill, and one serious flaw is how sensitive they are to random fluctuations -- like being tired or sick the day of the test. Many educators hold this view, and professors often have a lot of flexibility in how they structure their tests (and classes more generally), compared to say, high school teachers. I am curious about the circumstances of the parent post. In a 600-person Psych 101 class, I would agree it would be inappropriate to offer makeup tests (unless they were available to all students). But in a 15-person upper-level class? There's no grading curve, the whole process is basically individualized.
- ACow_Adonis 7y ago
  You misunderstand (or perhaps I'm miscommunicating) if it comes across as vehemence. I meant it purely as a statement of fact. I'm well aware of the problems of testing and assessment and standard education structures. But the point I was trying to convey was that the way I was brought up, and the popular image of testing and grades and meritocracy I was indoctrinated with, would frame what your teacher did as cheating/academic dishonesty. The idea that such an activity would be done (and not be seen by everyone else as an immediately fireable offence) would have literally an almost unthinkable thought until my late 20s/early 30s and I got a bit more exposure to the world and how academia/ society/ humanity actually works. I think that's a highly relevant point/peice of context when responding to a story about how young students enter these institutions with different assumptions, experience and worldviews...
  - jlev1 7y ago
    I see, that makes sense. Though the phrasing of "how the world works" still makes it sound like you think it's shady and unethical, when I don't (necessarily) think it is.
rumanator 7y ago
What core of the education system do you feel was under attack? The ability to assess how much a student learned about a specific subject?
SamReidHughes 7y ago
One class I was taking (ToC using Sipser), I forgot to turn in the first two homework assignments on time, so I didn’t turn them in at all. Then I had to make sure to get perfect scores on the rest of the homeworks and exams to get an A. I wound up getting 100’s until a 98 on the final, so I visited the professor’s office at the designated time for questions on the final and asked what I got wrong. After he explained what I did wrong, we got in an argument about whether I should get points for the first two homework assignments, until I relented and accepted that he could give me points for the software part of the assignments without him looking at it, so he could give me an A. On the other hand, when working as an undergrad teaching a Calc II recitation, I had a student miss a quiz I was supposed to administer, because for no reason, he just didn’t show up, so I let him meet me later that week and take it in front of me. My goal was to help him succeed, because getting a zero would really suck. I don’t think it violated the integrity of anything. He wasn’t falsely getting certified as having learned calc II. I think most teachers are willing to do things like this if it’ll make the grade a more accurate representation of the student.

snagglegaggle 7y ago

What the fuck is this? I had to leave due to mental health issues that I wasn't able to get documented at the time, and have been having huge issues returning ever since. Fuck all of this.

zbobet2012 7y ago
You've just proven his point though. Authority figures are just... people. And some people are quite nice and understanding and some people are grade capital a assholes. Oh and any bureaucratic process is intentionally trying to weed you out.
- akhilcacharya 7y ago
  I went to a large state school. This would absolutely not fly in any of the classes I took. It might work in a upper level graduate course but that’s an entirely different situation.

akhilcacharya 7y ago

....what sort of institution was this?

amalcon 7y ago

So, I'd left out some details that I thought were not relevant to the main point, but apparently that lack of detail is distracting. I'll add it back in. The institution in question is a small private university. Not one of the ones you've heard of, but they are at least somewhat comparable to that tier in an academic sense. E.g. I know people who turned down an MIT or equivalent to attend, and they often compete with that tier for grants. The class in question was normally a third- or fourth-year class (the school was pretty flexible with that sort of thing), with fewer than a dozen students and a professor I did not previously know. The social engagement was not a frat party or something. I would not have gone to something like that the night before an exam. Further, I didn't drink in those years anyway, despite being of legal age. It was (I know I'm dating myself) an old friend's last night at home before being deployed in the Iraq war. I drove home, and a bunch of us got together to send him off. I drank soda. Finally, on the question of fairness, the professor did acknowledge this. My score on the make-up was capped to a maximum still less than that earned by anyone else in the class. Even with all of those caveats, it still was something I would not have thought to ask for. I apparently also taught the professor something that day, and he said that going forward he would tell his students up front that he's willing to work with them on that sort of thing.