4 ms·

well the vilification in the media certainly does not help, the amount men are bombarded with the message that they are source of so much wrong has to be overwh

well the vilification in the media certainly does not help, the amount men are bombarded with the message that they are source of so much wrong has to be overwhelming to many. anecdotal nonsense, a few years back we went through a wave of new HR videos about harassment and intimidation and not one had a non male aggressor. it was so bad the women attending the sessions were mocking the presentation. fortunately they canned that approach not long after after the poor reception.

threatofrain 7y ago
Is the media really shaming young men for being useless? What are the most notable movies or shows?
- Doxin 7y ago
  Anecdotally it seems to me that the "lazy, young, and failing at everything" stereotype is much more prevalent for men than women in popular media. On the other side the "young but really capable and never giving up" stereotype is much more common for women. Of course inversions of these tropes can be found all over the place so to properly see if there's a skew you'd need to analyse a whole lot of media and see which is more frequent. I'm not about to embark on that project so the best I can give you is a description of how it feels to me. In the end I don't think these sorts of stereotypes are too unbalanced, for every bad female stereotype you can find a bad male stereotype. I feel like the conversation shouldn't be about who has it worse and deserves compensation, it should be about how we decouple both good and bad stereotypes from gender or skin color or sexual orientation or what have you. You need stereotypes to tell compelling stories, otherwise you'd have to explain every single character in-depth. This isn't a bad thing, but we need to be more careful about attaching stereotypes needlessly to real existing groups of humans. If I were a script writer and it'd be up to me I'd probably just write the script with whichever stereotypes it needs, and then once the script is done flip some coins for the irrelevant character attributes such as gender or skin color or eye color. As far as I can tell those basically never matter for telling a story. Even in the case of it being historically inaccurate I wouldn't say it matters: you're already suspending your disbelief for a lot of stuff in the movies, the idea that e.g. a woman would be a commander in the first world war isn't a stretch big enough to break immersion. I need to learn to write more coherently and start a blog I think.
  - threatofrain 7y ago
    I asked for the most notable movies and shows. A few choice specimens which you think would resonate would work. For example, if I were to pick a few top candidates for nerd representation in media I might pick the IT Show or CSI or Mr Robot.
    - Doxin 7y ago
      - The Big Lebowski: The Dude - The Disappointments Room: David. At one point, he says that he plays Xbox and takes naps while he watches his wife Dana work, when he's asked what he does for a living. - The sopranos: Tony Soprano has a hard time getting his son A.J. to do any work whatsoever. - Seinfeld: George And to be fair, the trope does have inverted instances as well, but again it seems to me to be uncommon: - Married with children: Peg Bundy in the later seasons, Al bundy isn't much better though > I asked for the most notable movies and shows. And I ask god for a golden leprechaun every night, but that doesn't mean I'll get one. As a show of good faith I've spent some time researching an answer to your question, but just because you've posed a question doesn't mean you're entitled to an answer fulfilling your criteria.
- kop316 7y ago
  Not exactly "young men", but I'd argue the Simpsons and Family Guy are noteable for the dumb white male father figure.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - cafard 7y ago
    That goes back to at least the 1970s. There I suspect that the kid/woman v. dad/authority conflicts, the smart & pluck being on the first side and the obtuseness on the latter, really depicted the script writers v. the management.
    - kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
      Try Shakespeare and Greek Mythology before that. Or if that's too far back, television's The Honeymooners (1955-1956). Or the Flintstones for that matter. Or Fibber McGee and Molly if 30s radio shows are your thing. The bumbling male and the stalwart woman is a trope that is thousands of years old. Complaining about it is new.
droithomme 7y ago
> not one had a non male aggressor Decades ago I briefly dated an extremely physically abusive woman. Nearly killed me a couple times. I ended it. Not a single person has the slightest bit of sympathy over this. I've never struck a woman but maybe I should have in self defense. If I had though I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever I would have been reported, arrested, and imprisoned, regardless of all facts.
- octokatt 7y ago
  Hey, from an internet stranger, I'm sorry this happened to you. That's a terrible situation, made worse by the culture around you. I hope you've found support since then; if you haven't, here's my anonymous support. Here are links to finding more support: https://malesurvivor.org https://malesurvivor.org https://victimconnect.org https://victimconnect.org http://www.mensadviceline.org.uk http://www.mensadviceline.org.uk
- superqd 7y ago
  From an early age, my dad told my brothers and me, ALL the time that we should never hit a girl or woman. Ever. He drilled into us that there is never a reason to do this. Fast forward to high school and college, and I freeze when a woman gets physically aggressive and starts to seem violent. A part of my brain expects to fight back, but years of inculcation of the mantra, "never hit a woman" stopped me from responding (and it's not quite in my nature to run). So I just tried to shrug it off while such things happened. But, yeah, people should not hit people, unless in self defense, etc. Definitely if someone is attacking you it should not matter their sex when defending yourself. Ideally, anyway.

threatofrain 7y ago

Is the media really shaming young men for being useless? What are the most notable movies or shows?

Doxin 7y ago
Anecdotally it seems to me that the "lazy, young, and failing at everything" stereotype is much more prevalent for men than women in popular media. On the other side the "young but really capable and never giving up" stereotype is much more common for women. Of course inversions of these tropes can be found all over the place so to properly see if there's a skew you'd need to analyse a whole lot of media and see which is more frequent. I'm not about to embark on that project so the best I can give you is a description of how it feels to me. In the end I don't think these sorts of stereotypes are too unbalanced, for every bad female stereotype you can find a bad male stereotype. I feel like the conversation shouldn't be about who has it worse and deserves compensation, it should be about how we decouple both good and bad stereotypes from gender or skin color or sexual orientation or what have you. You need stereotypes to tell compelling stories, otherwise you'd have to explain every single character in-depth. This isn't a bad thing, but we need to be more careful about attaching stereotypes needlessly to real existing groups of humans. If I were a script writer and it'd be up to me I'd probably just write the script with whichever stereotypes it needs, and then once the script is done flip some coins for the irrelevant character attributes such as gender or skin color or eye color. As far as I can tell those basically never matter for telling a story. Even in the case of it being historically inaccurate I wouldn't say it matters: you're already suspending your disbelief for a lot of stuff in the movies, the idea that e.g. a woman would be a commander in the first world war isn't a stretch big enough to break immersion. I need to learn to write more coherently and start a blog I think.
- threatofrain 7y ago
  I asked for the most notable movies and shows. A few choice specimens which you think would resonate would work. For example, if I were to pick a few top candidates for nerd representation in media I might pick the IT Show or CSI or Mr Robot.
  - Doxin 7y ago
    - The Big Lebowski: The Dude - The Disappointments Room: David. At one point, he says that he plays Xbox and takes naps while he watches his wife Dana work, when he's asked what he does for a living. - The sopranos: Tony Soprano has a hard time getting his son A.J. to do any work whatsoever. - Seinfeld: George And to be fair, the trope does have inverted instances as well, but again it seems to me to be uncommon: - Married with children: Peg Bundy in the later seasons, Al bundy isn't much better though > I asked for the most notable movies and shows. And I ask god for a golden leprechaun every night, but that doesn't mean I'll get one. As a show of good faith I've spent some time researching an answer to your question, but just because you've posed a question doesn't mean you're entitled to an answer fulfilling your criteria.
kop316 7y ago
Not exactly "young men", but I'd argue the Simpsons and Family Guy are noteable for the dumb white male father figure.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- cafard 7y ago
  That goes back to at least the 1970s. There I suspect that the kid/woman v. dad/authority conflicts, the smart & pluck being on the first side and the obtuseness on the latter, really depicted the script writers v. the management.
  - kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
    Try Shakespeare and Greek Mythology before that. Or if that's too far back, television's The Honeymooners (1955-1956). Or the Flintstones for that matter. Or Fibber McGee and Molly if 30s radio shows are your thing. The bumbling male and the stalwart woman is a trope that is thousands of years old. Complaining about it is new.

droithomme 7y ago

> not one had a non male aggressor Decades ago I briefly dated an extremely physically abusive woman. Nearly killed me a couple times. I ended it. Not a single person has the slightest bit of sympathy over this. I've never struck a woman but maybe I should have in self defense. If I had though I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever I would have been reported, arrested, and imprisoned, regardless of all facts.

octokatt 7y ago
Hey, from an internet stranger, I'm sorry this happened to you. That's a terrible situation, made worse by the culture around you. I hope you've found support since then; if you haven't, here's my anonymous support. Here are links to finding more support: https://malesurvivor.org https://malesurvivor.org https://victimconnect.org https://victimconnect.org http://www.mensadviceline.org.uk http://www.mensadviceline.org.uk
superqd 7y ago
From an early age, my dad told my brothers and me, ALL the time that we should never hit a girl or woman. Ever. He drilled into us that there is never a reason to do this. Fast forward to high school and college, and I freeze when a woman gets physically aggressive and starts to seem violent. A part of my brain expects to fight back, but years of inculcation of the mantra, "never hit a woman" stopped me from responding (and it's not quite in my nature to run). So I just tried to shrug it off while such things happened. But, yeah, people should not hit people, unless in self defense, etc. Definitely if someone is attacking you it should not matter their sex when defending yourself. Ideally, anyway.