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There's no doubt that people decline cognitively in their old age. I don't think this study's saying that all cognitive decline is due to retirement. People get
by zik 7y ago
There's no doubt that people decline cognitively in their old age. I don't think this study's saying that all cognitive decline is due to retirement. People get old and their bodies and brains deteriorate. To my mind the question is whether the rate of decline can be reduced by keeping mentally active.
- bigYahnz 7y agoWouldn't you expect a slower physical decline from someone who has stayed active all their life? Wouldn't expect any real difference with the mind. I've overstayed my welcome at my current employer by a couple of years. I haven't had an actual challenge in a while. I feel like I am getting worse at programming. Not better.
- cft 7y agoPeople's cognitive decline statistically starts as early as 40. You can see that from the age distribution of biggest discoveries in physics and mathematics. You can also see that from the HR policies of the software companies.
- crooked-v 7y agoCorrelation is not causation.
- qnsi 7y agoIt doesnt, but it sometimes can be a big clue. What other factors can explain, that old people dont make so many breakthroughs? (If hes correct)
- jedberg 7y agoLack of testosterone because they already have a mate. There is a lot of science to back this up. That getting married and/or having kids is what marks a man's decline in innovative output, because they no longer have to impress potential mates. But it's also correlative and not causative, and assumes most men make the breakthroughs, which has been traditionally true but almost certainly because of some other factor than just gender.
- cft 7y ago> Lack of testosterone because they already have a mate. Testesterone decline begins at 30, regardless of the marital status. https://www.menshormonalhealth.com/normal-testosterone-levels.html https://www.menshormonalhealth.com/normal-testosterone-level... This corroborates (in the correlational sense) my original statement. To those who silently downvoted it: is it politically incorrect to talk about cognitive decline at any age in general, or only starting from a particular age? If 40 was too early, what is the allowed age? 65? 85?
- jedberg 7y agoOverall production declines but relative levels have a greater variance when one isn't "mated". Also other hormones, all of which contribute to "impressing a potential mate".
- ekianjo 7y agoBecause they no longer have to impress mates? Do you really think the world is explained by a single variable?
- jedberg 7y agoOf course not. But the point is there are many possible explanations other than "aging" to explain lack of breakthroughs in older people.
- vidarh 7y agoOne factor may well be that when you start studying a subject a large part of what contributes to new developments may well be that you bring a new angle, and lack of understanding of what is accepted. E.g. I remember my first CS classes, and how I during my algorithm classes "invented" thing after thing just to read on to the next chapter and see my "inventions" covered. But now and again someone will come up with a genuine invention to a problem that is novel and important in part because they've not yet come to learn what the "right solution" to that problem is. As you learn more, you tend to focus on the perceived narrow gaps of uncharted territories or at adding more at the peaks, where making progress is a massive slog. From a different perspective, having done multiple startups, I think one of the advantages I had in terms of willingness to jump into something new when I was younger, was lack of knowledge. I went head first into starting and ISP without knowing either the business side, or the technical side of it - I had enough knowledge to know where to start figuring it out, but not enough to know why it would be hard. And so I did it. We weren't tremendously successful, but we learned a hell of a lot, and in the end it kickstarted my career. Today, it's far easier for me to look at an idea and think up a hundred reasons why it will probably fail because I know more. While that probably saves me a lot of misery, I've also been through enough startups to know that a lot of the objections people raise that looks fatal can be easily overcome; it's very hard to know which flaws will actually be a problem and which will not, and some even turns out to be advantages (e.g. you find a way past them but your competitors don't). In a sense it is frustrating, and I sometimes wish I could look at an idea and ignore the obvious flaws the way I would have at 20... Another advantage was being less risk averse even when I did see the risks and flaws. I had far less to lose: No career to ruin; no house to lose; no child I was responsible for, more time to do something else if I got nowhere. So when we then look at breakthroughs, to determine if it is down to cognitive differences, we also need to consider how large a proportion at different ages are willing to take those risks and put in that level of effort. My first startup was planned in a couple of weeks; we got seed funding from some random person one of us met in a bar (...); the following week I moved out from parents into a room in our new office. I'd never be willing to move that fast today, nor live in the office, because my priorities are different. And while I strongly believe I am more likely to be successful at the things I try today, I am also a lot more cautious about the attempts I make. In the end I'm probably less likely to end up with a stratospheric success due to less willingness to take huge risks and fewer attempts, but I'm also less likely (I think, at least) to end up crashing and burning. Startups are obviously different from e.g. success in science, but I'd suggest similar mechanisms are at play - you build a reputation that depends on certain things that are easier if you stay "safe" in a niche you know you can keep publishing in than if you go for something of totally uncertain payoff; you get comfortable in a working pattern that fits your life etc. Of course that does not rule out cognitive decline as part of the explanation as well.
- sbierwagen 7y agoBrain volume by age: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316307676/figure/fig2/AS:485649871577093@1492799360247/Plot-of-total-brain-volume-and-age-https-doiorg-101371-journalpone0175800g002.png https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316307676/figure/fi... Various forms of intelligence by age: https://miro.medium.com/max/1038/1*ccb0bgIqgebwJWTdMGMXXQ.png https://miro.medium.com/max/1038/1*ccb0bgIqgebwJWTdMGMXXQ.pn... If this correlation isn't causation, then I'm not sure what is.
- bcrosby95 7y agoYour chart seems to indicate software development related intelligence peaks somewhere between 40-60. Given this, why do software companies like young people so much?
- sbierwagen 7y agoTo steal from patio11, an employment contract is both payment for current services and also an option on future services-- hiring people is hard, and you want to keep them around.[1] A 60 year old is less valuable since they're more likely to retire than a 30 year old. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21177759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21177759
- Spooky23 7y agoMore work, less pay. People between 40-60 tend to have things they care about outside of work at higher rates.
- jodrellblank 7y agoAnd maybe a lot earlier than that; > researchers have discovered that Alzheimer’s Disease is preceded by DECADES of gradually worsening glucose hypometabolism. > Brain glucose metabolism can be reduced by as much as 25% long before any memory problems become obvious. As a psychiatrist who specializes in the treatment of college students, I find it positively chilling that scientists have found evidence of glucose hypometabolism in the brains of women as young as 24 years old - https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/diagnosis-diet/201609/avoiding-alzheimer-s-disease-could-be-easier-you-think https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/diagnosis-diet/201...
- HenryKissinger 7y agoAs a man in my mid twenties, should I ask my doctor to check if I have glucose hypometabolism?
- telotortium 7y agoWhat would you be able to do with this information?
- lonelappde 7y agoI'd ask someone with high brain glucose metabolism for advice.
- kqr 7y agoThat's something I would try to find out if it turned out I had low glucose metabolism. No sense in looking into it before it is confirmed.
- jimhefferon 7y agoHR policies are often most influenced by consideration of salary size.
- musicale 7y agoThis may be changing somewhat as people live longer. The average age for nobel prize work is around 48, but many scientists are productive their whole lives. Since most software development isn't anywhere near nobel or turing-class difficulty, age discrimination policies in hiring and firing make more sense in the context of other factors such as a desire for cheaper workers, trying to avoid retraining costs, and a desire for workers with minimal family or outside commitments (and no interest in work-life balance) as well as fewer health issues.
- ekianjo 7y agoWhy would it be different from physical decline? If you dont keep exercising in your older years you will decline much faster.
- lensopra 7y agoWhy would it be the same as physical decline? False analogy.