4 ms·

Honest question: if someone modifies the software of their car, will it still be street-legal?

duxup 7y ago
In the US there's no prohibition on modifying car software that all by itself. In the US you can do so without copyright risks. IMO (not a lawyer) the result is what the legal question would be. If you modified your car and it started pumping out emissions that would be otherwise illegal I'd be a bit concerned about that.
- asguy 7y ago
  California would have issues with modifications to any emissions related software, even if your modifications meet or beat standards. They require testing by certified labs and proper state-granted exemptions. Even on your own personal car. It’s a ridiculous burden.
  - not2b 7y ago
    If you modify your emissions related software, how do you know that your modifications meet or beat standards? You determine this by having someone who is qualified, and documented to be qualified (like a certified lab) do the testing. Since a prime motivation for mods is to get more performance out of a car even at the price of 10x the pollution, it isn't surprising that many jurisdictions regulate this.
freedrock87 7y ago
Same q for combustion engines
- JohnFen 7y ago
  For both questions, the answer is "yes, depending". I don't think there are different legal requirements for electric vs gasoline cars. In both cases, you can modify them all you want without running afoul of the laws about motor vehicles. However, in both cases, you can absolutely make modifications that render the vehicle no longer street legal. Removing the turn signals would do it, for instance.
megous 7y ago
Why not? What's wrong with modifying your infotainment system for example? People can put random android radios into their cars, and nobody cares. And code quality will probably be quite atrocious.
- lrem 7y ago
  Never underestimate how the letter of the law can miss its spirit... Which is also nowhere near guaranteed to be what a subject matter expert would consider common sense.
- twblalock 7y ago
  > Why not? What's wrong with modifying your infotainment system for example? A lot of infotainment systems lock out some features when the car is moving. For example, watching a DVD on the dashboard screen of a moving car is not normally possible. People share workarounds for that kind of thing on car enthusiast forums. If someone removed restrictions from their infotainment system, and they were involved in an accident while using that system, it might come up if the matter went to court.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    It might, yes, but that doesn't mean that making that modification is illegal (it's not). It could be brought up in court as piece of a larger effort to show negligence or actual lawbreaking. For instance, in my state it's entirely legal to have a video system that is capable of showing video that is visible to the driver, but it's entirely illegal to use that system in a way that makes the video visible to the driver. So while having the system installed is legal, it could also be a piece of a larger collection of evidence showing wrongdoing.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > It might, yes, but that doesn't mean that making that modification is illegal (it's not). Using the modified device where the public vehicle code applies might be, even if making the modification, alone, is not strictly illegal. (For instance use of the device so modified would be illegal on a public road in California, where it would violate the screen use law, which only allows screen use if it has a lockout of all but specified allowed functions while the vehicle is moving. Note that under the text, even if only the functions permitted while a vehicle is in operation are actually used, it would still violate the law to use the device if the lockout was disabled so that it was possible to use other functions.) Cal. Vehicle Code § 27602.
LinuxBender 7y ago
Volkswagen had an opinion on that matter that has since changed. This was of course for internal combustion engines and the software modified the behavior of the car if it detected a smog test harness. In all seriousness though, if you modified something that reduced the safety of the vehicle and someone is harmed, I can only assume that would be a factor in the legal finding. I am not a lawyer however.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
rasz 7y ago
In Florida you can street register a shopping cart with V8 in it, as long as you put some lights, brakes, and seat belt on the thing. Obviously no Emissions testing for Florida man. Software is the least of your worries.
Jamwinner 7y ago
The emissions control stuff, possibly illegal, under federal law, largely unenforced. Ever see 'offroad only' marked on hot rod parts, thats why. Your car should be able to respond correctly to OBD2 requests for smogging. And it will be fine IRL. Don't be a dick and use it as a pass to pollute. A good running car pollutes less and gets better mileage than stock. Infotainment? Hack away. This is my day job.
HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
Which software? Body control module? Engine control module? Entertainment module? Any of the other stuff I'm not thinking of? And once we decide which firmware in what CPU is being modified, now we get into what exactly the changes are. In short, usually it's fine. In some extreme cases it's not.

In the US there's no prohibition on modifying car software that all by itself. In the US you can do so without copyright risks. IMO (not a lawyer) the result is what the legal question would be. If you modified your car and it started pumping out emissions that would be otherwise illegal I'd be a bit concerned about that.

asguy 7y ago
California would have issues with modifications to any emissions related software, even if your modifications meet or beat standards. They require testing by certified labs and proper state-granted exemptions. Even on your own personal car. It’s a ridiculous burden.
- not2b 7y ago
  If you modify your emissions related software, how do you know that your modifications meet or beat standards? You determine this by having someone who is qualified, and documented to be qualified (like a certified lab) do the testing. Since a prime motivation for mods is to get more performance out of a car even at the price of 10x the pollution, it isn't surprising that many jurisdictions regulate this.

freedrock87 7y ago

Same q for combustion engines

JohnFen 7y ago
For both questions, the answer is "yes, depending". I don't think there are different legal requirements for electric vs gasoline cars. In both cases, you can modify them all you want without running afoul of the laws about motor vehicles. However, in both cases, you can absolutely make modifications that render the vehicle no longer street legal. Removing the turn signals would do it, for instance.

megous 7y ago

Why not? What's wrong with modifying your infotainment system for example? People can put random android radios into their cars, and nobody cares. And code quality will probably be quite atrocious.

lrem 7y ago
Never underestimate how the letter of the law can miss its spirit... Which is also nowhere near guaranteed to be what a subject matter expert would consider common sense.
twblalock 7y ago
> Why not? What's wrong with modifying your infotainment system for example? A lot of infotainment systems lock out some features when the car is moving. For example, watching a DVD on the dashboard screen of a moving car is not normally possible. People share workarounds for that kind of thing on car enthusiast forums. If someone removed restrictions from their infotainment system, and they were involved in an accident while using that system, it might come up if the matter went to court.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  It might, yes, but that doesn't mean that making that modification is illegal (it's not). It could be brought up in court as piece of a larger effort to show negligence or actual lawbreaking. For instance, in my state it's entirely legal to have a video system that is capable of showing video that is visible to the driver, but it's entirely illegal to use that system in a way that makes the video visible to the driver. So while having the system installed is legal, it could also be a piece of a larger collection of evidence showing wrongdoing.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > It might, yes, but that doesn't mean that making that modification is illegal (it's not). Using the modified device where the public vehicle code applies might be, even if making the modification, alone, is not strictly illegal. (For instance use of the device so modified would be illegal on a public road in California, where it would violate the screen use law, which only allows screen use if it has a lockout of all but specified allowed functions while the vehicle is moving. Note that under the text, even if only the functions permitted while a vehicle is in operation are actually used, it would still violate the law to use the device if the lockout was disabled so that it was possible to use other functions.) Cal. Vehicle Code § 27602.

LinuxBender 7y ago

Volkswagen had an opinion on that matter that has since changed. This was of course for internal combustion engines and the software modified the behavior of the car if it detected a smog test harness. In all seriousness though, if you modified something that reduced the safety of the vehicle and someone is harmed, I can only assume that would be a factor in the legal finding. I am not a lawyer however.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

rasz 7y ago

In Florida you can street register a shopping cart with V8 in it, as long as you put some lights, brakes, and seat belt on the thing. Obviously no Emissions testing for Florida man. Software is the least of your worries.

Jamwinner 7y ago

The emissions control stuff, possibly illegal, under federal law, largely unenforced. Ever see 'offroad only' marked on hot rod parts, thats why. Your car should be able to respond correctly to OBD2 requests for smogging. And it will be fine IRL. Don't be a dick and use it as a pass to pollute. A good running car pollutes less and gets better mileage than stock. Infotainment? Hack away. This is my day job.

HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago

Which software? Body control module? Engine control module? Entertainment module? Any of the other stuff I'm not thinking of? And once we decide which firmware in what CPU is being modified, now we get into what exactly the changes are. In short, usually it's fine. In some extreme cases it's not.