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Here lies the danger of arguing from a position of zero knowledge. > Even a crazy fitness nut likely wouldn't cycle that many miles every day Speaking as a cr

Here lies the danger of arguing from a position of zero knowledge. > Even a crazy fitness nut likely wouldn't cycle that many miles every day Speaking as a crazy fitness nut, I have to tell you no, sorry, 30 miles is my warm up/recovery distance. > People living in big, dense cities are too quick to forget most people don't live that life 80% of the US population lives within an urban area. > Out here, a car is pretty necessary I live in the suburbs. When I have an early meeting, I ride to the train station. I do have a car, but I still don't have to use it. To sum up: car dependency is a self-fulfilling prophecy based on a combination of wilful ignorance and unwillingness to change.

Alupis 7y ago
> Here lies the danger of arguing from a position of zero knowledge. > 30 miles is my warm up/recovery distance That's absurd and you know it. Possibly spoken from someone that doesn't actually cycle, or is greatly exaggerating. You ride 1-2 hours for a warm-up/cool-down? You expect regular people to ride 1-2 hours to work each day? You expect to maintain 20-30mph pacing with stop signs, street lights, riding on regular city streets? Completely absurd and out of touch with reality. That's insane pacing - that's race pacing. Most cyclists will do 20-30 miles for an entire ride. Sometimes exceeding that, but certainly not doing 60 miles a day (3-4 hours a day) 5 days a week. That is, unless, you're training for something... which a daily commuter going to an office job isn't. Not to mention if you're someone doing that kind of mileage, you likely own a bike that costs as much as a car, but is far harder to "park" securely, doesn't work well in the rain, and requires you to carry work clothing, laptops, paperwork, groceries, and more on your back. > 80% of the US population lives within an urban area. Source? If you're citing the WaPo article which cites Census data - they're lumping Suburban and Urban together and calling it just Urban - that's super disingenuous. Most people live in suburban areas. There are certainly dense population areas in true urban areas (SF, NY, Seattle, LA, etc), but that's not 80% of the nation. Not even close. > I live in the suburbs. When I have an early meeting, I ride to the train station. You probably work at an area near the train station then - perhaps a Downtown location or similar. What if this commute required multiple trains hops, with distance between the train stations because you're commuting 3 cities over for work each day? Feasible? Sure... but now you've taken an hour long commute and turned it into 3 hours each way. That's not feasible for most people. This narrative falls flat when faced with actual working circumstances for many people... outside the ideal "just take the train" scenario. What if there's not even a train?
- inopinatus 7y ago
  > > 30 miles is my warm up/recovery distance > That's absurd and you know it. That is wilful rejection of facts. You defined the upper bound of possibility by invoking crazy fitness nuts - well, here I am to tell you how wrong you were. > You expect regular people to ride 1-2 hours to work each day? I know many people (who would not describe themselves as "crazy fitness nuts") who do just that. Yes, they do rely on high quality end-of-trip facilities, but many of our urban employers and councils now offer these. I also know people who commute in a car for longer than that. As commute durations go, measurement in hours is far from unusual. > Completely absurd and out of touch with reality. That's insane pacing - that's race pacing It's true. I won at least one nationally sanctioned bike race every year from 2011-2015. Sorry, what was your problem with that? You invoke crazy fitness nuts, we show up like Candyman. > Most cyclists will do 20-30 miles for an entire ride Again, I was speaking to your incorrect claim of the upper bound of the possible. But sure, move the goalposts if you like, because: > You probably work at an area near the train station then - perhaps a Downtown location or similar I simply live in a country and a state that didn't pathetically lowball its rail infrastructure and intermodal transit options. > actual working circumstances for many people You get what you voted for, based on what you believed was possible, and suggesting things are impossible is just wilful, pig-headed rejection of what can be achieved if the people actually want it, with the simple evidence that it's been achieved elsewhere. Cars are a useful tool, but the claim that they simply are an essential element of a functioning modern society begs the question of why certain societies are so automobile dependent, and wilfully ignores those that aren't.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > You expect regular people to ride 1-2 hours to work each day? Why not? In the city I used to live in, my car commute was 5 miles one way, but took 1-2 hours because of traffic. Thousands of others had the same situation, and they all did it too.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >You expect regular people to ride 1-2 hours to work each day? Don't know about you, but I have friends who cycled around 30-40 mins to work each day and back (so 1 hour total), and they were regular people (not even particularly young, like 30+). And my city is anything but bike friendly...

Alupis 7y ago

> Here lies the danger of arguing from a position of zero knowledge. > 30 miles is my warm up/recovery distance That's absurd and you know it. Possibly spoken from someone that doesn't actually cycle, or is greatly exaggerating. You ride 1-2 hours for a warm-up/cool-down? You expect regular people to ride 1-2 hours to work each day? You expect to maintain 20-30mph pacing with stop signs, street lights, riding on regular city streets? Completely absurd and out of touch with reality. That's insane pacing - that's race pacing. Most cyclists will do 20-30 miles for an entire ride. Sometimes exceeding that, but certainly not doing 60 miles a day (3-4 hours a day) 5 days a week. That is, unless, you're training for something... which a daily commuter going to an office job isn't. Not to mention if you're someone doing that kind of mileage, you likely own a bike that costs as much as a car, but is far harder to "park" securely, doesn't work well in the rain, and requires you to carry work clothing, laptops, paperwork, groceries, and more on your back. > 80% of the US population lives within an urban area. Source? If you're citing the WaPo article which cites Census data - they're lumping Suburban and Urban together and calling it just Urban - that's super disingenuous. Most people live in suburban areas. There are certainly dense population areas in true urban areas (SF, NY, Seattle, LA, etc), but that's not 80% of the nation. Not even close. > I live in the suburbs. When I have an early meeting, I ride to the train station. You probably work at an area near the train station then - perhaps a Downtown location or similar. What if this commute required multiple trains hops, with distance between the train stations because you're commuting 3 cities over for work each day? Feasible? Sure... but now you've taken an hour long commute and turned it into 3 hours each way. That's not feasible for most people. This narrative falls flat when faced with actual working circumstances for many people... outside the ideal "just take the train" scenario. What if there's not even a train?

inopinatus 7y ago
> > 30 miles is my warm up/recovery distance > That's absurd and you know it. That is wilful rejection of facts. You defined the upper bound of possibility by invoking crazy fitness nuts - well, here I am to tell you how wrong you were. > You expect regular people to ride 1-2 hours to work each day? I know many people (who would not describe themselves as "crazy fitness nuts") who do just that. Yes, they do rely on high quality end-of-trip facilities, but many of our urban employers and councils now offer these. I also know people who commute in a car for longer than that. As commute durations go, measurement in hours is far from unusual. > Completely absurd and out of touch with reality. That's insane pacing - that's race pacing It's true. I won at least one nationally sanctioned bike race every year from 2011-2015. Sorry, what was your problem with that? You invoke crazy fitness nuts, we show up like Candyman. > Most cyclists will do 20-30 miles for an entire ride Again, I was speaking to your incorrect claim of the upper bound of the possible. But sure, move the goalposts if you like, because: > You probably work at an area near the train station then - perhaps a Downtown location or similar I simply live in a country and a state that didn't pathetically lowball its rail infrastructure and intermodal transit options. > actual working circumstances for many people You get what you voted for, based on what you believed was possible, and suggesting things are impossible is just wilful, pig-headed rejection of what can be achieved if the people actually want it, with the simple evidence that it's been achieved elsewhere. Cars are a useful tool, but the claim that they simply are an essential element of a functioning modern society begs the question of why certain societies are so automobile dependent, and wilfully ignores those that aren't.
JohnFen 7y ago
> You expect regular people to ride 1-2 hours to work each day? Why not? In the city I used to live in, my car commute was 5 miles one way, but took 1-2 hours because of traffic. Thousands of others had the same situation, and they all did it too.
coldtea 7y ago
>You expect regular people to ride 1-2 hours to work each day? Don't know about you, but I have friends who cycled around 30-40 mins to work each day and back (so 1 hour total), and they were regular people (not even particularly young, like 30+). And my city is anything but bike friendly...