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There was a time when I thought China would eventually open up and be more democratic like the rest of the world. I really thought it was inevitable.

metalliqaz 7y ago
Well, it's not unique to China. Authoritarianism is rising all around the world. Turns out there's lots of people in current majority populations that really feel threatened when minorities start getting rights, and their anxiety about having to compete in a meritocracy means they will throw democracy under the bus as long as they can keep their majority status.
- notzuck 7y ago
  "compete in a meritocracy" You're clearly behind on the times. Nobody wants meritocracy. People want what they consider fair and that's usually a leg up over everyone around them. Big 4 have started giving points for diversity when hiring. This is the new normal.
  - metalliqaz 7y ago
    youre just restating my point
    - notzuck 7y ago
      I didn't mean to restate your point. I think you did not understand me at all. I was saying that the people you think want everything to be a meritocracy, do not. The minorities that want equality do not want equality at all and the system is starting to give them preferential treatment.
      - metalliqaz 7y ago
        oh I see now, you're one of those people I was talking about.
        notzuck 7y ago
        Of course just dismiss my actual experiences because it doesn't match your political bias. I had a hiring manager LITERALLY say he liked me but has to hire a woman to balance out the team. I was LITERALLY told to give minority candidates 5 extra points on CV scoring when I was a senior manager at Deloitte. We now have management programs and other trainings available exclusively as part of women's networks where the same training is not available to men. I know plenty of people that could do with presentation training, why did only the women get it?
        jjeaff 7y ago
        You are assuming that all diversity pushes are purely for diversity sake. But that is simply not true. Uber has started pushing for diversity because a monoculture is what helped turn them into the toxic workplace that it was. Other companies are trying to hire diverse staff because they are building products for diverse customers and they know a diverse staff will create a better product. If you hire all young, white, males, you end up with products like facial recognition that only recognizes white people and AI with built in bias among many other things. In these cases, rejecting you for a diversity hire is no different than telling you, "well, you are really talented at what you do, but your expertise is Java and what we need is an expert in Go."
        notzuck 7y ago
        Can you map any of what you said to the role I applied for? I can't. Can you map anything you just said to the roles I was interviewing when I was hiring at Deloitte? I can't. You really think that many places aren't doing diversity for the sake of diversity? You're so naive. Deloitte have no reason to give women extra points on their CV / resume scoring. Oracle have no reason to turn down males sales execs in an attempt to balance out the male heavy teams. All male teams are not always toxic and hiring women doesn't guarantee that you'll end up with a less toxic team. I've worked with toxic men and toxic women. I hope you get rejected over your gender so you know how it feels.
        7y ago
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- social_warriorx 7y ago
  Except it's exactly the other way around. Meritocracy is a racist myth which keeps in place white colonialist capitalist power structures and oppresses minorities: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/opinion/sunday/wasps-meritocracy-ross-douthat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/opinion/sunday/wasps-meri... https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/19/the-myth-of-meritocracy-who-really-gets-what-they-deserve https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/19/the-myth-of-mer... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/meritocracy-myth-rich-college-admissions https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/merito... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/20/meritocracy-inequality-theresa-may-donald-trump https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/20/merito... https://unherd.com/2018/12/the-most-dangerous-thing-about-meritocracy/ https://unherd.com/2018/12/the-most-dangerous-thing-about-me...
  - notzuck 7y ago
    The arguments in those links are nonsense as far as I am concerned. I don't think you were expressing your opinion, I think you were just saying that this is how it is now. You got downvoted anyway. Some people just can't see what's going on around them.
zachguo 7y ago
I'm still optimistic and patient. But the democracy won't be in the exact form as the ones stemmed from Greek traditions.
proverbialbunny 7y ago
Unfortunately, Xi's policies are highly NPD (narcissistic), so I don't have high hopes.
daveslash 7y ago
Many (maybe most) of us in the West thought that about China. And Russia for that matter. The fact that that's not coming to fruition has been one of the biggest mental shifts in my understanding of the world in the past few years.

metalliqaz 7y ago

Well, it's not unique to China. Authoritarianism is rising all around the world. Turns out there's lots of people in current majority populations that really feel threatened when minorities start getting rights, and their anxiety about having to compete in a meritocracy means they will throw democracy under the bus as long as they can keep their majority status.

notzuck 7y ago
"compete in a meritocracy" You're clearly behind on the times. Nobody wants meritocracy. People want what they consider fair and that's usually a leg up over everyone around them. Big 4 have started giving points for diversity when hiring. This is the new normal.
- metalliqaz 7y ago
  youre just restating my point
  - notzuck 7y ago
    I didn't mean to restate your point. I think you did not understand me at all. I was saying that the people you think want everything to be a meritocracy, do not. The minorities that want equality do not want equality at all and the system is starting to give them preferential treatment.
    - metalliqaz 7y ago
      oh I see now, you're one of those people I was talking about.
      - notzuck 7y ago
        Of course just dismiss my actual experiences because it doesn't match your political bias. I had a hiring manager LITERALLY say he liked me but has to hire a woman to balance out the team. I was LITERALLY told to give minority candidates 5 extra points on CV scoring when I was a senior manager at Deloitte. We now have management programs and other trainings available exclusively as part of women's networks where the same training is not available to men. I know plenty of people that could do with presentation training, why did only the women get it?
        jjeaff 7y ago
        You are assuming that all diversity pushes are purely for diversity sake. But that is simply not true. Uber has started pushing for diversity because a monoculture is what helped turn them into the toxic workplace that it was. Other companies are trying to hire diverse staff because they are building products for diverse customers and they know a diverse staff will create a better product. If you hire all young, white, males, you end up with products like facial recognition that only recognizes white people and AI with built in bias among many other things. In these cases, rejecting you for a diversity hire is no different than telling you, "well, you are really talented at what you do, but your expertise is Java and what we need is an expert in Go."
        notzuck 7y ago
        Can you map any of what you said to the role I applied for? I can't. Can you map anything you just said to the roles I was interviewing when I was hiring at Deloitte? I can't. You really think that many places aren't doing diversity for the sake of diversity? You're so naive. Deloitte have no reason to give women extra points on their CV / resume scoring. Oracle have no reason to turn down males sales execs in an attempt to balance out the male heavy teams. All male teams are not always toxic and hiring women doesn't guarantee that you'll end up with a less toxic team. I've worked with toxic men and toxic women. I hope you get rejected over your gender so you know how it feels.
        7y ago
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
social_warriorx 7y ago
Except it's exactly the other way around. Meritocracy is a racist myth which keeps in place white colonialist capitalist power structures and oppresses minorities: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/opinion/sunday/wasps-meritocracy-ross-douthat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/opinion/sunday/wasps-meri... https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/19/the-myth-of-meritocracy-who-really-gets-what-they-deserve https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/19/the-myth-of-mer... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/meritocracy-myth-rich-college-admissions https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/merito... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/20/meritocracy-inequality-theresa-may-donald-trump https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/20/merito... https://unherd.com/2018/12/the-most-dangerous-thing-about-meritocracy/ https://unherd.com/2018/12/the-most-dangerous-thing-about-me...
- notzuck 7y ago
  The arguments in those links are nonsense as far as I am concerned. I don't think you were expressing your opinion, I think you were just saying that this is how it is now. You got downvoted anyway. Some people just can't see what's going on around them.

zachguo 7y ago

I'm still optimistic and patient. But the democracy won't be in the exact form as the ones stemmed from Greek traditions.

proverbialbunny 7y ago

Unfortunately, Xi's policies are highly NPD (narcissistic), so I don't have high hopes.

daveslash 7y ago

Many (maybe most) of us in the West thought that about China. And Russia for that matter. The fact that that's not coming to fruition has been one of the biggest mental shifts in my understanding of the world in the past few years.