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Sparta is fetishized because they beat Athens in the Peloponnesian war and Plato idealized the spartans.
by paleotrope 7y ago
Sparta is fetishized because they beat Athens in the Peloponnesian war and Plato idealized the spartans.
- hodgesrm 7y agoThere was also that little skirmish at Thermopylae that helped grow the legend.
- lolinder 7y agoI'd argue that the mythology surrounding Thermopylae is the result of the mythology surrounding Sparta, rather than the other way around. Objectively, Thermopylae was an abject defeat (even by Herodotus's account) that didn't do anything to save Greece from Persia conquering basically everything. The only reason it's more than a historical footnote is because of the Spartan legend.
- cafard 7y agoIt was a holding action that gave the Greeks time to consolidate further back, no? And really, quite number of holding actions and retreats have achieved considerable fame. Among the retreats I'd mention the Anabasis, Sir John Moore's retreat on Corunna, the Long March, Dunkirk, and Stillwell's retreat to Burma.
- muro 7y agoOnly if made by victors, no?
- nidificate 7y ago> Spartan planning is both direct and unrealistic: find a choke-point, fortify it and hold it indefinately with a hoplite army. Attempted at Thermopylae this plan fails; the Battle of Thermopylae is often represented in popular culture as an intentional delaying action, but it was nothing of the sort – Herodotus is clear that this was supposed to be the decisive land engagement (Hdt. 7.175; Cf. Diodorus 11.4.1-5).
- dr_dshiv 7y agoHe is wrong about that. Herodotus says that they were an advance front to buy time for the rest, who were at a religious festival and at the Olympics: “The force with Leonidas was sent forward by the Spartans in advance of their main body, that the sight of them might encourage the allies to fight, and hinder them from going over to the Medes, as it was likely they might have done had they seen that Sparta was backward. They intended presently, when they had celebrated the Carneian festival, which was what now kept them at home, to leave a garrison in Sparta, and hasten in full force to join the army. The rest of the allies also intended to act similarly; for it happened that the Olympic festival fell exactly at this same period. None of them looked to see the contest at Thermopylae decided so speedily; wherefore they were content to send forward a mere advanced guard.”
- notfromhere 7y agoPretty sure Persia lost that war pretty significantly.
- coldtea 7y agoSparta was considered important way before they "beat Athens". And it has nothing to do with Plato either.
- lolinder 7y agoCan you provide a source or an alternative point of origin for Sparta's importance? You've stated categorically that the parent is misinformed, but provided no information to back it up.
- kieranmaine 7y agoI always thought the Spartans came to prominence in this war - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Persian_Wars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Persian_Wars
- coldtea 7y agoWhy, are the claims controversial? They're backed by 2+ millenia of historiography. Just off of the easiest sources available on the web: Given its military pre-eminence, Sparta was recognized as the leading force of the unified Greek military during the Greco-Persian Wars, in rivalry with the rising naval power of Athens. Sparta was the principal enemy of Athens during the Peloponnesian War (between 431 and 404 BC), from which it emerged victorious. (...) Sparta was the subject of fascination in its own day, as well as in Western culture following the revival of classical learning. (...) In ancient times "Many of the noblest and best of the Athenians always considered the Spartan state nearly as an ideal theory realised in practice." Many Greek philosophers, especially Platonists, would often describe Sparta as an ideal state, strong, brave, and free from the corruptions of commerce and money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta Sparta was one of the most important Greek city-states throughout the Archaic and Classical periods and was famous for its military prowess. The professional and well-trained Spartan hoplites with their distinctive red cloaks, long hair, and lambda-emblazoned shields were probably the best and most feared fighters in Greece, fighting with distinction at such key battles as Thermopylae and Plataea in the early 5th century BCE. https://www.ancient.eu/sparta/ https://www.ancient.eu/sparta/ During the 5th century BC Sparta was very powerful. This was due to her army, which was feared by other Greeks. Sparta focused on producing good soldiers and all Spartan male citizens were part of the army. The Spartan army played an important role in the Greek victory over the Persians, in 480-479 BC. http://www.ancientgreece.co.uk/sparta/home_set.html http://www.ancientgreece.co.uk/sparta/home_set.html The Athenian view of Sparta oscillated between admiration and fear, according to whether their warlike neighbors were allies or enemies. Without Spartan participation in the war against Persia at the beginning of the fifth century B.C.— especially their heroic stand at the critical Battle of Thermopylae in 480—the Persians may well have conquered Greece. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2016/11-12/sparta-military-greek-civilization/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2016/11-...
- cafard 7y agoThey also contributed greatly to beating the Persians at Plataea.
- mandevil 7y agoThey beat Athens only with the help of tremendous quantities of Persian gold. That was what enabled Sparta to win the war, not Sparta's military capabilities.
- catalogia 7y agoI think it has a lot to do with Plutarch telling wacky fun stories about Lycurgus and Sparta. The sort of stories that are fun to share with others.