4 ms·

Meritocracy? Ha. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is being hollowed out. This administration certainly hasn’t hel

Meritocracy? Ha. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is being hollowed out. This administration certainly hasn’t helped as it amplifies its fear based rhetoric of migrants Migration was and is a big part of the process. Not the only part, but still a problem to be solved. If you presumably want a European-style healthcare system in America and a job market that doesn't only favor employers, you'll need to acknowledge that the laws of supply and demand apply to labor and social services, and that an all-inclusive welfare state and mass migration can't work together.

ljw1001 7y ago
> If you presumably want a European-style healthcare system in America and a job market that doesn't only favor employers... This doesn't stand up to the least amount of reflection. There are immigrants in Europe. If you look at European countries individually there is massive immigration between them, as well as immigration from outside. And yet. The US system favors employers not because of free-market competition between employees (or at least not predominantly so) but because corporations have bought the US government and twist every law to their advantage. Destroying the last vestiges of labor unions was just one small part.
- deogeo 7y ago
  > There are immigrants in Europe. If you look at European countries individually there is massive immigration between them, as well as immigration from outside. And yet. And yet in almost no country has the original population almost become a minority, unlike the US. So clearly the cumulative net immigration is greater in the US. And Bernie Sanders (someone who has certainly applied the "least amount of reflection" to this) seems to share the GPs view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0
  - iron0013 7y ago
    The original population of the United States is Native Americans. Is that who you meant when you said "original population"? Or to put it another way, brown people who speak Spanish, for example, have been in North America just as long as white people who speak English... Actually, the more I think about it, the more curious I am about who you think the "original population" of the United States is, and why
    - deogeo 7y ago
      You're right, I should have just said white people. The reason I used demographics like this, is that per-capita net immigration numbers are tricky to come by, especially when you factor in the EU changing in size. But if you simply look at ethnicity, it's obvious one territory had a greater influx of people. Regardless, I don't see how this pedantry affects the claim that an influx of workers drives down wages.
      - vinay427 7y ago
        > But if you simply look at ethnicity, it's obvious one territory had a greater influx of people. Ignoring the implication that "white people" are somehow collectively more original in the US, why are we choosing some arbitrary distinctions of ethnicity particularly for this claim as these groups aren't even cleanly distinguishable by average wage?
        deogeo 7y ago
        There is no implication or distinction made. I'm merely using race as marker to gauge immigration flows. As I explained in the sentence prior to the one you quoted.
    - UnpossibleJim 7y ago
      The original population of the Americas was some ungulates, mice and a few flying animals. Humans have always been an invasive species if you want to go far enough back. Where do you want to stop and start the clock to call it the "original population"?
- alfromspace 7y ago
  This comparison is apples to oranges. Intra-EU immigration is mostly high-skilled labor, and the outside low-skilled migration situation is different from America's. In America, most illegal immigrants work in huge numbers in the service and agricultural industries. In Europe, the most comparable group of people being migrants from Africa and the Middle East, are overwhelmingly unemployed. There's less of a supply shock to labor, but certainly very large costs to the state and its healthcare programs. Many European healthcare systems are more strained than ever.
  - gumby 7y ago
    > Intra-EU immigration is mostly high-skilled labor, Actually it’s the opposite. In fact it’s an area of concern for the EU as they have not been ale to make highly skilled occupations (lawyers, engineers, etc) as portable as hod carrying. > Many European healthcare systems are more strained than ever. Citation? Complaints from my friends in France and Germany are risible to someone who has had to interact with US system.

ljw1001 7y ago

> If you presumably want a European-style healthcare system in America and a job market that doesn't only favor employers... This doesn't stand up to the least amount of reflection. There are immigrants in Europe. If you look at European countries individually there is massive immigration between them, as well as immigration from outside. And yet. The US system favors employers not because of free-market competition between employees (or at least not predominantly so) but because corporations have bought the US government and twist every law to their advantage. Destroying the last vestiges of labor unions was just one small part.

deogeo 7y ago
> There are immigrants in Europe. If you look at European countries individually there is massive immigration between them, as well as immigration from outside. And yet. And yet in almost no country has the original population almost become a minority, unlike the US. So clearly the cumulative net immigration is greater in the US. And Bernie Sanders (someone who has certainly applied the "least amount of reflection" to this) seems to share the GPs view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0
- iron0013 7y ago
  The original population of the United States is Native Americans. Is that who you meant when you said "original population"? Or to put it another way, brown people who speak Spanish, for example, have been in North America just as long as white people who speak English... Actually, the more I think about it, the more curious I am about who you think the "original population" of the United States is, and why
  - deogeo 7y ago
    You're right, I should have just said white people. The reason I used demographics like this, is that per-capita net immigration numbers are tricky to come by, especially when you factor in the EU changing in size. But if you simply look at ethnicity, it's obvious one territory had a greater influx of people. Regardless, I don't see how this pedantry affects the claim that an influx of workers drives down wages.
    - vinay427 7y ago
      > But if you simply look at ethnicity, it's obvious one territory had a greater influx of people. Ignoring the implication that "white people" are somehow collectively more original in the US, why are we choosing some arbitrary distinctions of ethnicity particularly for this claim as these groups aren't even cleanly distinguishable by average wage?
      - deogeo 7y ago
        There is no implication or distinction made. I'm merely using race as marker to gauge immigration flows. As I explained in the sentence prior to the one you quoted.
  - UnpossibleJim 7y ago
    The original population of the Americas was some ungulates, mice and a few flying animals. Humans have always been an invasive species if you want to go far enough back. Where do you want to stop and start the clock to call it the "original population"?
alfromspace 7y ago
This comparison is apples to oranges. Intra-EU immigration is mostly high-skilled labor, and the outside low-skilled migration situation is different from America's. In America, most illegal immigrants work in huge numbers in the service and agricultural industries. In Europe, the most comparable group of people being migrants from Africa and the Middle East, are overwhelmingly unemployed. There's less of a supply shock to labor, but certainly very large costs to the state and its healthcare programs. Many European healthcare systems are more strained than ever.
- gumby 7y ago
  > Intra-EU immigration is mostly high-skilled labor, Actually it’s the opposite. In fact it’s an area of concern for the EU as they have not been ale to make highly skilled occupations (lawyers, engineers, etc) as portable as hod carrying. > Many European healthcare systems are more strained than ever. Citation? Complaints from my friends in France and Germany are risible to someone who has had to interact with US system.