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> The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the sm

> The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. I don't think I'm in position to have a long discussion about this in english, but I thought about it and reached no conclussion. If I'm against the Catalan independence it's basically because of practical reasons. I don't think it will solve any problem, but create many more, make many people from Catalonia and from outside miserable and it's also the question of how this momentum has been achieved, which actors have been involved, and in what way. Currently the independence movement is probably, and for the most part, outside the control of PDCAT and ERC, which are the two main independence parties. But I can't just erase my memory and forget how it got here, and on what arguments. I have Catalan friends and relatives, as well as two ex-girlfriends, so I don't live in a television reality (exclusively), and the situation hurts me a lot, and I can understand how the Catalan perception of events develops, and I am perfectly aware of the failures of the Spanish state, but I can only be in favour if I do a very selective memory exercise. All this without forgetting that there is a legal way, which is to reform the constitution. But it is difficult and requires a political capital that the parties that (now) are idependent have burned long ago. And I can imagine what a politician sitting in his office thinks when he observes that he has never had better material and symbolic conditions, and that if he wanted support from other regions he would have to recover the capital lost in the last, I don't know, fifteen years.

ErneX 7y ago
Constitution reform is the only way and yet lots of people keep pointing to other things, this is the reason we are stuck in this situation now. That road is long and requires actual politics, what they have done is taking a shortcut to nowhere.
- ivalm 7y ago
  Catalan are not majority of Spain. They cannot themselves change the constitution, yet they do not want to stay in Spain. So it's a fake "way." The majority should not be allowed to bully the minority.
  - ErneX 7y ago
    So if I don't want to be part of the new Catalonia I can secede my home or join with a few neighbors to be independent from Catalonia? We have a constitution for something it's a not a Chinese vase to glance at it.
    - tassl 7y ago
      The argument of "I can secede from my home" is reductionist, simplistic and overall insulting to any group of people that want independence from the country they depend on or have fought for independence in the past. Most countries today are independent even though it was illegal for them to become independent before they did. Poland or Estonia would still be part of the Russian empire. Austria and Hungary the same country, same with Czech Republic and Slovakia would still be Czechoslovakia. Malta and Cyprus would be part of the UK. And this is just a quick look to Europe of the 20th century. We can go back and argue that the US couldn't/shouldn't be independent of the UK. And Cuba part of Spain. The question remains the same: why do people, outside of a territory, control the political status of this territory, going against international law? "Article 1 1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development." What Spain is saying, and some Spanish people justifying, is that Catalonia doesn't have that right, and Catalans should never freely determine their political status and pursue their economic, social and cultural development. Then reinforce that lack of freedom with charges of sedition if you try and charges of terrorism if you protest.
      - ErneX 7y ago
        We are talking about a region of Spain that in 1978 voted YES to approve the Spanish constitution. One of the wealthiest regions of an EU member. This is not an oppressed or punished population, the right of self determination does not apply to it when it's an autonomous region that is part of a functioning modern democracy. Even ex-UN chief Ban Ki-moon agreed on this: https://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-independence-ban-ki-moon-2419635-Nov2015/ https://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-independence-ban-ki-moon-2...
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  If the Constitution is too hard to amend then that is as oppressive as any other method. Deliberately making political change too slow to accomplish is how you get revolutions, sooner or later.
deltron3030 7y ago
Yeah, economically it would be likely a disaster without quick integration into the EU on a higher level. That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? Or why can't they rejoin with Spain after trying and failing? I don't think that people would deal with a failure like that, they'd vote to rejoin, and the bond would be stronger afterwards. I think their movement wouldn't have gotten that much steam with a legal possibility to secede though. I'm interested in the mass psychology behind it, why Spain and their politicians think that it's a good idea to point out that the constitution of Spain and their unitarian aspects are untouchable.
- ErneX 7y ago
  To the EU this is an internal matter, plus, most of the countries of the EU have regions with similar intentions (of secession), it would be like shooting themselves in the foot. Plus new state members of the EU have to be approved by every current member IIRC.
  - repolfx 7y ago
    The EU is absolutely happy to interfere with internal matters when it suits them, to a huge degree. Look at how they have been treating Poland and its reforms of its court system. Or look at how the EU is trade sanctioning Switzerland due to a dispute over Swiss internal working regulations. The Commission is all about "European values" and how they're going to impose penalties when a country is doing something unaligned with their own agenda. But their agenda is to destroy all European nations and merge them all into one super-nation controlled by itself. As part of that they desperately want people to feel patriotism and nationalism towards their new nation called Europe, not existing countries. See how disrespecting the EU flag is now illegal in some countries. From their perspective Catalonian independence = more countries = harder to unite Europe. Therefore it's fine to crush the resistance. "European values" have mysteriously gone missing.
    - carlmr 7y ago
      >Or look at how the EU is trade sanctioning Switzerland due to a dispute over Swiss internal working regulations. The Swiss aren't in the EU.

ErneX 7y ago

Constitution reform is the only way and yet lots of people keep pointing to other things, this is the reason we are stuck in this situation now. That road is long and requires actual politics, what they have done is taking a shortcut to nowhere.

ivalm 7y ago
Catalan are not majority of Spain. They cannot themselves change the constitution, yet they do not want to stay in Spain. So it's a fake "way." The majority should not be allowed to bully the minority.
- ErneX 7y ago
  So if I don't want to be part of the new Catalonia I can secede my home or join with a few neighbors to be independent from Catalonia? We have a constitution for something it's a not a Chinese vase to glance at it.
  - tassl 7y ago
    The argument of "I can secede from my home" is reductionist, simplistic and overall insulting to any group of people that want independence from the country they depend on or have fought for independence in the past. Most countries today are independent even though it was illegal for them to become independent before they did. Poland or Estonia would still be part of the Russian empire. Austria and Hungary the same country, same with Czech Republic and Slovakia would still be Czechoslovakia. Malta and Cyprus would be part of the UK. And this is just a quick look to Europe of the 20th century. We can go back and argue that the US couldn't/shouldn't be independent of the UK. And Cuba part of Spain. The question remains the same: why do people, outside of a territory, control the political status of this territory, going against international law? "Article 1 1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development." What Spain is saying, and some Spanish people justifying, is that Catalonia doesn't have that right, and Catalans should never freely determine their political status and pursue their economic, social and cultural development. Then reinforce that lack of freedom with charges of sedition if you try and charges of terrorism if you protest.
    - ErneX 7y ago
      We are talking about a region of Spain that in 1978 voted YES to approve the Spanish constitution. One of the wealthiest regions of an EU member. This is not an oppressed or punished population, the right of self determination does not apply to it when it's an autonomous region that is part of a functioning modern democracy. Even ex-UN chief Ban Ki-moon agreed on this: https://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-independence-ban-ki-moon-2419635-Nov2015/ https://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-independence-ban-ki-moon-2...
anigbrowl 7y ago
If the Constitution is too hard to amend then that is as oppressive as any other method. Deliberately making political change too slow to accomplish is how you get revolutions, sooner or later.

deltron3030 7y ago

Yeah, economically it would be likely a disaster without quick integration into the EU on a higher level. That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? Or why can't they rejoin with Spain after trying and failing? I don't think that people would deal with a failure like that, they'd vote to rejoin, and the bond would be stronger afterwards. I think their movement wouldn't have gotten that much steam with a legal possibility to secede though. I'm interested in the mass psychology behind it, why Spain and their politicians think that it's a good idea to point out that the constitution of Spain and their unitarian aspects are untouchable.

ErneX 7y ago
To the EU this is an internal matter, plus, most of the countries of the EU have regions with similar intentions (of secession), it would be like shooting themselves in the foot. Plus new state members of the EU have to be approved by every current member IIRC.
- repolfx 7y ago
  The EU is absolutely happy to interfere with internal matters when it suits them, to a huge degree. Look at how they have been treating Poland and its reforms of its court system. Or look at how the EU is trade sanctioning Switzerland due to a dispute over Swiss internal working regulations. The Commission is all about "European values" and how they're going to impose penalties when a country is doing something unaligned with their own agenda. But their agenda is to destroy all European nations and merge them all into one super-nation controlled by itself. As part of that they desperately want people to feel patriotism and nationalism towards their new nation called Europe, not existing countries. See how disrespecting the EU flag is now illegal in some countries. From their perspective Catalonian independence = more countries = harder to unite Europe. Therefore it's fine to crush the resistance. "European values" have mysteriously gone missing.
  - carlmr 7y ago
    >Or look at how the EU is trade sanctioning Switzerland due to a dispute over Swiss internal working regulations. The Swiss aren't in the EU.