19 ms·

IMO the accusation of terrorism is too much, but honestly some of the actions are worrying. I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm

IMO the accusation of terrorism is too much, but honestly some of the actions are worrying. I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from, but I understand why so many Catalonians are angry and protest for. But I also understand what different police forces are facing. You get actions like putting trees and blocks of concrete on railroads, making it very dangerous for passengers and workers. They can't just let that happen. And they see this people is using P2P technology which is almost impossible to control, so they use all legal means at their disposal. I'm not a legal expert but I'd bet that going through the terrorism route is the only way they have to do something about it. We could argue for years about what's legitimate and what's not, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect the police forces to do nothing.

zozbot234 7y ago
> You get actions like putting trees and blocks of concrete on railroads, making it very dangerous for passengers and workers. There are laws against doing such things on the books, I'd assume - even if the motive were "just" to block railway traffic. The government should focus on investigating those responsible. It's not at all clear that blocking an app that might have countless legitimate, non-violent uses is the right choice.
- iagovar 7y ago
  If I was from the police I'd probably want to block the chance to coordinate such attacks, not only do an investigation to track certain individuals. What would be the point to spend many resources to put a guy or a few of them in jail when they can be easily replaced.
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    Of course it depends how many people are involved in such things, and whether the app specifically is allowing them to coordinate these attacks. Most of the commentary so far has been about demonstrations, sometimes turning into violent riots. Purposely sabotaging/obstructing a piece of critical infrastructure is something rather different, although whether it could be defined as "terrorism" is somewhat ambiguous.
    - iagovar 7y ago
      > whether it could be defined as "terrorism" is somewhat ambiguous. I won't define it as terrorism, but if you are in the Police and you really have no other legal tool, what do you do? If the boundary is fuzzy enough, they're gonna push for it. In the end they'll probably have a hard time proving that to a judge, but as a temporary measure they probably think it's useful.
      - zozbot234 7y ago
        Actually, my main point was that it could qualify. Attacks on critical infrastructure have been deemed as such, and the implied risk to human life makes this an even stronger possibility. If these things are actually happening, it's quite appropriate to bring them to light.
      - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        You don't have to call it terrorism. Vandalism, reckless endangerment, malicious mischief... there are a bunch of different laws that apply.
    - nl 7y ago
      It's worth noting that this conflict has previously had groups who were terrorist (the bomb planting kind).
      - hootbootscoot 7y ago
        it's worth noting that spanish over-reactions may be rooted in memories/fears of ETA, which is an entirely different group from an entirely different region also seeking secession. the concern is the "suppress this at any cost" approach. the heavy sentences can be seen as provocative (13 years for holding an "illegal" election is indefensible. it's pure authoritarian slapdown, reeks of hubris, and spits in the face of actual violent crime convictions. you can get less for murder in Spain!) this fuels sympathy for a movement that otherwise smelled a bit like the "Piadina" secessionists: a rich region seeking to "unburden" itself of it's poorer compatriot region such is the unreformed state of spanish nationalism that Madridenses literally will see nothing wrong with extreme civil rights breaches by G.C. etc. let's not forget that Spain just sold a large order of bombs to Saudi Arabia, so the epiphet "terrorist" is not to be taken seriously, as in the American Gov't etc. I'm in no way interested in Catalunyan independence, but this posturing by the Spanish Gov't looks RIDICULOUS and should be ridiculed as such.
  - acollins1331 7y ago
    Sure, that's what you'd want. And everyone in the police here wants video and audio recording of every persons movement at all times so they can solve every crime. Sometimes the police want bad things.
    - commandlinefan 7y ago
      "A police officer's job is only easy in a police state"
- pas 7y ago
  Wasn't this app purposefully made and has been branded as such for this group and their cause?
deltron3030 7y ago
>I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. A functional democracy implies that the whole has to arrange itself democratically with the parts it consists of, if not it risks degrowth, parts that split off from the whole and form their own units. Enforcing unity therefore can't be democratic because it lacks democracy at the lowest level. A functional democracy regulates itself through trade offs and common sense. If the outcome of that is something you're opposed to you still have to accept that if you want to live in a real democracy, not just a hypocrite simulation of it.
- cfv 7y ago
  It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. The fascist dictator who formed modern Spain made it so its constituent lands can expel a part of it but no one part of it can choose to leave. This is the root of why the procés is illegal, and why they are being charged as violent agitators. They are seen as young kids trying to leave their parent's house and taking their bedrooms and console with them. If they amended the constitution, changed the rules, THEN left, that would change things. Problem is, that's even harder to do, in a country where the aforementioned military dictator died free, of old age, and he and his legacy are greatly revered by a whole lot of people.
  - romaaeterna 7y ago
    Right to exit is an important foundation of legitimate rule. Plato's Crito has Socrates make the point that, even sentenced to death, he was bound to respect the laws of Athens as he was someone who had made the voluntary choice to remain in the city all of his life until then and under those laws.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - 7y ago
rtkwe 7y ago
> And they see this people is using P2P technology which is almost impossible to control, so they use all legal means at their disposal. I'm not a legal expert but I'd bet that going through the terrorism route is the only way they have to do something about it. Framing it another way they're using trumped up terrorism charges to invoke powers that were not meant to be used against protests. Police powers are intentionally limited so that the full force of the state doesn't come crushing down on people speeding and using over blown charges to access those additional powers is very reminiscent of past slides away from democracy. > I don't think it's reasonable to expect the police forces to do nothing. That's the problem there's always more a police force can do, restricting that impulse to order and action is important to resist the slow slide towards police states.
- lostphilosopher 7y ago
  This is a fundamental question any government or citizenry has to ask itself: Under what circumstances, if any, should the police stand down?
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    It's a very tough question and not one that's ever really answered formally. The US Constitution has a vague definition but the line has been redrawn and erased so many times.
  - smsm42 7y ago
    In theory, it's an easy question: when nobody's natural rights are being violated, police should not intervene. In practice, of course, no police force ever limits themselves to that, so the question becomes - how much the citizens would agree to tolerate and under which sauce? Experience shows, that the first is "a lot" and the second is "depending on how much you scare them, if you are good at scaring, you can pull off practically anything".
tempguy9999 7y ago
I am not at all familiar with this situation, but these quotes > but I understand why so many Catalonians are angry and protest for and > But I also understand what different police forces are facing gives the impression the police may be paying the price for some politicians' bad decisions.
zadkey 7y ago
What in your views would you say are valid grounds to seek independence? If you are going to say Catalonia shouldn't seek independence, perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us on the ethical criteria to seek independence?

zozbot234 7y ago

> You get actions like putting trees and blocks of concrete on railroads, making it very dangerous for passengers and workers. There are laws against doing such things on the books, I'd assume - even if the motive were "just" to block railway traffic. The government should focus on investigating those responsible. It's not at all clear that blocking an app that might have countless legitimate, non-violent uses is the right choice.

iagovar 7y ago
If I was from the police I'd probably want to block the chance to coordinate such attacks, not only do an investigation to track certain individuals. What would be the point to spend many resources to put a guy or a few of them in jail when they can be easily replaced.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Of course it depends how many people are involved in such things, and whether the app specifically is allowing them to coordinate these attacks. Most of the commentary so far has been about demonstrations, sometimes turning into violent riots. Purposely sabotaging/obstructing a piece of critical infrastructure is something rather different, although whether it could be defined as "terrorism" is somewhat ambiguous.
  - iagovar 7y ago
    > whether it could be defined as "terrorism" is somewhat ambiguous. I won't define it as terrorism, but if you are in the Police and you really have no other legal tool, what do you do? If the boundary is fuzzy enough, they're gonna push for it. In the end they'll probably have a hard time proving that to a judge, but as a temporary measure they probably think it's useful.
    - zozbot234 7y ago
      Actually, my main point was that it could qualify. Attacks on critical infrastructure have been deemed as such, and the implied risk to human life makes this an even stronger possibility. If these things are actually happening, it's quite appropriate to bring them to light.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      You don't have to call it terrorism. Vandalism, reckless endangerment, malicious mischief... there are a bunch of different laws that apply.
  - nl 7y ago
    It's worth noting that this conflict has previously had groups who were terrorist (the bomb planting kind).
    - hootbootscoot 7y ago
      it's worth noting that spanish over-reactions may be rooted in memories/fears of ETA, which is an entirely different group from an entirely different region also seeking secession. the concern is the "suppress this at any cost" approach. the heavy sentences can be seen as provocative (13 years for holding an "illegal" election is indefensible. it's pure authoritarian slapdown, reeks of hubris, and spits in the face of actual violent crime convictions. you can get less for murder in Spain!) this fuels sympathy for a movement that otherwise smelled a bit like the "Piadina" secessionists: a rich region seeking to "unburden" itself of it's poorer compatriot region such is the unreformed state of spanish nationalism that Madridenses literally will see nothing wrong with extreme civil rights breaches by G.C. etc. let's not forget that Spain just sold a large order of bombs to Saudi Arabia, so the epiphet "terrorist" is not to be taken seriously, as in the American Gov't etc. I'm in no way interested in Catalunyan independence, but this posturing by the Spanish Gov't looks RIDICULOUS and should be ridiculed as such.
- acollins1331 7y ago
  Sure, that's what you'd want. And everyone in the police here wants video and audio recording of every persons movement at all times so they can solve every crime. Sometimes the police want bad things.
  - commandlinefan 7y ago
    "A police officer's job is only easy in a police state"
pas 7y ago
Wasn't this app purposefully made and has been branded as such for this group and their cause?

deltron3030 7y ago

>I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. A functional democracy implies that the whole has to arrange itself democratically with the parts it consists of, if not it risks degrowth, parts that split off from the whole and form their own units. Enforcing unity therefore can't be democratic because it lacks democracy at the lowest level. A functional democracy regulates itself through trade offs and common sense. If the outcome of that is something you're opposed to you still have to accept that if you want to live in a real democracy, not just a hypocrite simulation of it.

cfv 7y ago
It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. The fascist dictator who formed modern Spain made it so its constituent lands can expel a part of it but no one part of it can choose to leave. This is the root of why the procés is illegal, and why they are being charged as violent agitators. They are seen as young kids trying to leave their parent's house and taking their bedrooms and console with them. If they amended the constitution, changed the rules, THEN left, that would change things. Problem is, that's even harder to do, in a country where the aforementioned military dictator died free, of old age, and he and his legacy are greatly revered by a whole lot of people.
- romaaeterna 7y ago
  Right to exit is an important foundation of legitimate rule. Plato's Crito has Socrates make the point that, even sentenced to death, he was bound to respect the laws of Athens as he was someone who had made the voluntary choice to remain in the city all of his life until then and under those laws.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - 7y ago

rtkwe 7y ago

> And they see this people is using P2P technology which is almost impossible to control, so they use all legal means at their disposal. I'm not a legal expert but I'd bet that going through the terrorism route is the only way they have to do something about it. Framing it another way they're using trumped up terrorism charges to invoke powers that were not meant to be used against protests. Police powers are intentionally limited so that the full force of the state doesn't come crushing down on people speeding and using over blown charges to access those additional powers is very reminiscent of past slides away from democracy. > I don't think it's reasonable to expect the police forces to do nothing. That's the problem there's always more a police force can do, restricting that impulse to order and action is important to resist the slow slide towards police states.

lostphilosopher 7y ago
This is a fundamental question any government or citizenry has to ask itself: Under what circumstances, if any, should the police stand down?
- rtkwe 7y ago
  It's a very tough question and not one that's ever really answered formally. The US Constitution has a vague definition but the line has been redrawn and erased so many times.
- smsm42 7y ago
  In theory, it's an easy question: when nobody's natural rights are being violated, police should not intervene. In practice, of course, no police force ever limits themselves to that, so the question becomes - how much the citizens would agree to tolerate and under which sauce? Experience shows, that the first is "a lot" and the second is "depending on how much you scare them, if you are good at scaring, you can pull off practically anything".

tempguy9999 7y ago

I am not at all familiar with this situation, but these quotes > but I understand why so many Catalonians are angry and protest for and > But I also understand what different police forces are facing gives the impression the police may be paying the price for some politicians' bad decisions.

zadkey 7y ago

What in your views would you say are valid grounds to seek independence? If you are going to say Catalonia shouldn't seek independence, perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us on the ethical criteria to seek independence?