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I feel like this might, in part, also be caused by the hate for taxes in the US. The goal seems to be lowering taxes as much as possible until only the bare min

I feel like this might, in part, also be caused by the hate for taxes in the US. The goal seems to be lowering taxes as much as possible until only the bare minimum is left. Proactively maintaining public land is not something people deem important (until it's too late) so that's an easy thing to skip. 'Adopt a highway' is a perfect example of something that, in my opinion, should be taken care of through taxes, but is now the responsibility of good Samaritans. Now this is what it looks like from far away in Europe and I might be completely wrong.

jdhn 7y ago
Saying that California is a low tax state is completely wrong. The state is known for high taxes even when compared to other liberal states in the US.
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  Not generally but they are a low property tax state for those "grandfathered" by Prop 8. Which is another can of worms and not particularly relevant here.
- donkeyd 7y ago
  That's all relative though. In the US, California has high taxes. Compared to many European countries, taxes in California are still very low.
- tstrimple 7y ago
  This is misleading due to how states structure their tax code. California has a high top marginal rate, but its progressive taxation system leads to many of the middle class and under paying lower taxes than in other states. I live in Iowa, for example, and the top marginal tax rate is 8.9% for all income earned over $72k. The top marginal rate in California is 13.3%, but only applies to income over $1MM. A couple making $80k in California will pay about $2k (effective 2.52%) in income taxes, while the same couple in Iowa will pay $3,976 (effective 4.97%). You can't just compare tax rates by comparing the top marginal rate. You've got to look at how they actually impact people.
  - mikestew 7y ago
    As if that's not complicated enough, throw in the 10% CA sales tax versus 7% in Iowa. And property tax. Prop 13, Prop 8(?), et. al., can make a considerable difference, as I understand it. Props or not, the total is likely to be higher just because housing is much more expensive in CA. 20% of 200,000 is a lot less than 10% of 1MM. But in the end, as a WA resident who has given serious consideration to moving to CA and has done this math a few different ways, my gut has a hard time believing Iowa's overall tax burden is comparable to California's. Regardless, maybe it's true or maybe it's not, but is an extra $10,000 in taxes what's really keeping you from picking up and moving? I posit that for most on HN, no, it's a lot of other factors like housing and traffic. But to the topic at hand, others have pointed out that PG&E is financed by rate payers, not taxes. And CA has some pretty high electric rates. So why are the forests catching on fire?
ghaff 7y ago
I don’t necessarily disagree with some of your points. But Adopt a Highway (adoptahighway.net) is a marketing and advertising program. Which apparently works as many, like you, probably think they’re doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.
- donkeyd 7y ago
  I know, that's why most of the pieces of highway still look like shit, because these companies don't actually take the time to maintain what they adopted. Which is exactly why I think it shouldn't exist and taxes should be used to keep roads clean.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    It's one company that does the work under contract as I understand it. The individual companies are just paying to get their name on a sign. (Which is probably how it would be done even if the state were paying for it all on their own.) If they aren't doing the job well, sounds like the state should renegotiate their highway cleaning contract.
rayiner 7y ago
Taxes is a red herring. Most of this area is forest—“maintaining it” doesn’t involve clearing trees. The only reason to do that would be for the safety of the power lines. And depending where you are in Europe, the money for stuff like that comes from the same place as in California. A government regulatory agency (in California, the CPUC) decides what prices the utility can charge based on what it perceives as being “prudent investments” by the utility plus a small profit. The money comes not from taxes, but from rate payers. The reason this kind of maintenance failure happens in the US is because our public regulators are more short sighted than your public regulators. They are political appointees that keep rates too low to keep voters happy. The US has some of the lowest electric rates in the world: https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/energy-guides/average-electricity-prices-kwh.html https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/energy-guides/average-elect.... (California’s are high for the US, but still very low compared to Europe.)
- donkeyd 7y ago
  You're just talking about the areas near power lines now though. Those fires wouldn't be as big of an issue if the rest of the area was properly maintained, not allowing the fire to spread. That part has nothing to do with the power companies. So yes, not having the fires start is on the power companies, however making sure it can't spread isn't. Which is why I wrote 'in part'.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    I see. The Americans aren’t averse to paying taxes for controlled burns. It’s a political issue in California for environmental reasons, not financial reasons.

jdhn 7y ago

Saying that California is a low tax state is completely wrong. The state is known for high taxes even when compared to other liberal states in the US.

Nasrudith 7y ago
Not generally but they are a low property tax state for those "grandfathered" by Prop 8. Which is another can of worms and not particularly relevant here.
donkeyd 7y ago
That's all relative though. In the US, California has high taxes. Compared to many European countries, taxes in California are still very low.
tstrimple 7y ago
This is misleading due to how states structure their tax code. California has a high top marginal rate, but its progressive taxation system leads to many of the middle class and under paying lower taxes than in other states. I live in Iowa, for example, and the top marginal tax rate is 8.9% for all income earned over $72k. The top marginal rate in California is 13.3%, but only applies to income over $1MM. A couple making $80k in California will pay about $2k (effective 2.52%) in income taxes, while the same couple in Iowa will pay $3,976 (effective 4.97%). You can't just compare tax rates by comparing the top marginal rate. You've got to look at how they actually impact people.
- mikestew 7y ago
  As if that's not complicated enough, throw in the 10% CA sales tax versus 7% in Iowa. And property tax. Prop 13, Prop 8(?), et. al., can make a considerable difference, as I understand it. Props or not, the total is likely to be higher just because housing is much more expensive in CA. 20% of 200,000 is a lot less than 10% of 1MM. But in the end, as a WA resident who has given serious consideration to moving to CA and has done this math a few different ways, my gut has a hard time believing Iowa's overall tax burden is comparable to California's. Regardless, maybe it's true or maybe it's not, but is an extra $10,000 in taxes what's really keeping you from picking up and moving? I posit that for most on HN, no, it's a lot of other factors like housing and traffic. But to the topic at hand, others have pointed out that PG&E is financed by rate payers, not taxes. And CA has some pretty high electric rates. So why are the forests catching on fire?

ghaff 7y ago

I don’t necessarily disagree with some of your points. But Adopt a Highway (adoptahighway.net) is a marketing and advertising program. Which apparently works as many, like you, probably think they’re doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.

donkeyd 7y ago
I know, that's why most of the pieces of highway still look like shit, because these companies don't actually take the time to maintain what they adopted. Which is exactly why I think it shouldn't exist and taxes should be used to keep roads clean.
- ghaff 7y ago
  It's one company that does the work under contract as I understand it. The individual companies are just paying to get their name on a sign. (Which is probably how it would be done even if the state were paying for it all on their own.) If they aren't doing the job well, sounds like the state should renegotiate their highway cleaning contract.

rayiner 7y ago

Taxes is a red herring. Most of this area is forest—“maintaining it” doesn’t involve clearing trees. The only reason to do that would be for the safety of the power lines. And depending where you are in Europe, the money for stuff like that comes from the same place as in California. A government regulatory agency (in California, the CPUC) decides what prices the utility can charge based on what it perceives as being “prudent investments” by the utility plus a small profit. The money comes not from taxes, but from rate payers. The reason this kind of maintenance failure happens in the US is because our public regulators are more short sighted than your public regulators. They are political appointees that keep rates too low to keep voters happy. The US has some of the lowest electric rates in the world: https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/energy-guides/average-electricity-prices-kwh.html https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/energy-guides/average-elect.... (California’s are high for the US, but still very low compared to Europe.)

donkeyd 7y ago
You're just talking about the areas near power lines now though. Those fires wouldn't be as big of an issue if the rest of the area was properly maintained, not allowing the fire to spread. That part has nothing to do with the power companies. So yes, not having the fires start is on the power companies, however making sure it can't spread isn't. Which is why I wrote 'in part'.
- rayiner 7y ago
  I see. The Americans aren’t averse to paying taxes for controlled burns. It’s a political issue in California for environmental reasons, not financial reasons.