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For a bit of context I'll leave my two cents here trying to be as objective as possible, leaving politics out of it as much as I can. Following the judge's ver

For a bit of context I'll leave my two cents here trying to be as objective as possible, leaving politics out of it as much as I can. Following the judge's veredict of the Catalan politicians who coordinated the "proces", or series of political movements to attempt to secede Catalonia from Spain; demonstrations have arisen within Catalonia protesting said judgement - the politicians were essentially deemed as conspirators against the Spanish constitution and have been given varying prision sentences. Parts of those demonstrations have turned violent: clashes with police trying to stop blockages of streets and railroads, burning of cars and dumpsters, etc... The Catalonian government's stance on this is difficult: as a pro-independence government they're trying to promote actions against the veredict but in some situations it has gotten out of hand and turned violent - something a government can't really condone. Tsunami Democratic is an organisation that has been coordinating demonstrations and developed an app that allows people to know where demonstrations are happening, etc - whether these demonstrations turn violent or not is officially out of their control; the Spanish authorities (in this case, a judge in charge of investigating the circumstances around the more violent parts of the rioting) obviously believe that the app is aiding in coordinating violent attacks - whether that's terrorism or just violent rioting is something I don't know and I'm unsure we'll ever fully know. That's the context, at the end of the day it's a national government asking for a repo to be taken down in accordance to the laws of their country, you might disagree with it happening fundamentally but its nothing new, the Github repo for takedowns has plenty - although they seem to usually be coming from China/Russia.

zozbot234 7y ago
> developed an app that allows people to know where demonstrations are happening Sounds like a bit of welcomed transparency to me. The Spanish police, concerned citizenry, etc. can use the app just as much as anyone else, to prevent things from getting out of hand. (*Edited for consistency with newly-provided info in this HN thread.)
- jannes 7y ago
  I believe the app requires you to be invited via QR code by an existing member to gain access. Of course, the police would be able to infiltrate this with a bit of effort.
- banjodeluxe 7y ago
  Yeah I agree that there's a chance that might be the case - might be outrageous misrepresentation, takedown to crackdown on the movement, etc.. But I personally decide to give the system a little trust at least at first and like to think that the Spanish authorities who ordered this will have real reasons to base their decision on - with time we'll see I guess.
  - yeahforsureman 7y ago
    With all respect, I guess you haven't been following the Catalonian affair that closely then. To me it unfortunately looks like enforcement of laws around this issue has long become politicized to the point of endangering the rule of law, fair and objective administration of justice and the protection of fundamental rights such as the freedom of speech and assembly.
- jarfil 7y ago
  It's transparency when the information is about protest planned for the next day or further in the future. It's less clear cut when it becomes more of a "barrier has been breached on this street" along with "cops are moving to this other street" in realtime.
- tumetab1 7y ago
  Not sure what people opinions are when the judicial system has > the movement Tsunami Democratic has been confirmed as a criminal organization driving people to commit terrorist attacks So any material support to a criminal organization is criminal per se in most jurisdictions.
  - enriquto 7y ago
    the quoted sentence is false. The tsunami democratic has not been confirmed as a criminal organization.
- joking 7y ago
  the app attemps to hide that, it's using geolocation to promote and comunicate only with a subset of the app users, police could infiltrate and gain access to some of the groups, but it will never get access to the full network, so the contrary of transparency.
- iagovar 7y ago
  > The Spanish police, concerned citizenry, etc. can use the app just as much as anyone else, to prevent things from getting out of hand They can't. The app uses some kind of location data to silo information. So for example if they want to make an action in Tarragona, people from Barcelona is not going to know about it. It is likely, seeing some threads of people who have analyzed the application, that the administrators, or whoever is behind it, will be able to know how many people are available in a particular location, and isolate that information in a kind of opsec.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Can't you spoof location data?
    - iagovar 7y ago
      I guess so, I didn't do the analysis, but I'm pretty sure the guys who did the app already thought about that possibility.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
iagovar 7y ago
IMO the accusation of terrorism is too much, but honestly some of the actions are worrying. I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from, but I understand why so many Catalonians are angry and protest for. But I also understand what different police forces are facing. You get actions like putting trees and blocks of concrete on railroads, making it very dangerous for passengers and workers. They can't just let that happen. And they see this people is using P2P technology which is almost impossible to control, so they use all legal means at their disposal. I'm not a legal expert but I'd bet that going through the terrorism route is the only way they have to do something about it. We could argue for years about what's legitimate and what's not, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect the police forces to do nothing.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  > You get actions like putting trees and blocks of concrete on railroads, making it very dangerous for passengers and workers. There are laws against doing such things on the books, I'd assume - even if the motive were "just" to block railway traffic. The government should focus on investigating those responsible. It's not at all clear that blocking an app that might have countless legitimate, non-violent uses is the right choice.
  - iagovar 7y ago
    If I was from the police I'd probably want to block the chance to coordinate such attacks, not only do an investigation to track certain individuals. What would be the point to spend many resources to put a guy or a few of them in jail when they can be easily replaced.
    - zozbot234 7y ago
      Of course it depends how many people are involved in such things, and whether the app specifically is allowing them to coordinate these attacks. Most of the commentary so far has been about demonstrations, sometimes turning into violent riots. Purposely sabotaging/obstructing a piece of critical infrastructure is something rather different, although whether it could be defined as "terrorism" is somewhat ambiguous.
komarrian 7y ago
I think you are leaving out two important parts of this conflict. * The police brutality: Spanish police have been clashing with protestors disregarding their own operational guides and using excessive force and have been asked by multiple times to deescalete tensions. You can read more about this here: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/10/spain-authorities-must-deescalate-tensions-and-guarantee-the-right-to-public-assembly/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/10/spain-authori... * Judiciary repression: Two leaders of civic organizations, not politicians, have been handed down sentences of 9 years for sedition which is what sparked this protest.
major505 7y ago
Weel, I guess one can argue that every violent Riot is in itself an act of terrorism.
ryanlol 7y ago
>Following the judge's veredict of the Catalan politicians Not just politicians, but activists too. Jordi Cuixart is doing 9 years for organizing protests.
sparrc 7y ago
> the Github repo for takedowns has plenty - although they seem to usually be coming from China/Russia. The other takedowns are 100% from China and Russia. Spain is joining two of the most censor-heavy (and undemocratic) countries in the world by issuing this takedown.
vitobcn 7y ago
The takedown is referring to charges of terrorism: "the movement Tsunami Democratic has been confirmed as a criminal organization driving people to commit terrorist attacks. Tsunami Democratic's main goal is coordinating these riots and terrorist actions by using any possible mean." Can anybody point me to such terrorist actions? Tsunami Democratic is indeed organizing demonstrations and protests, but I don't understand that to be terrorism, especially if they are doing so repeatedly calling for "non-violence". Straight from their page: https://tsunamidemocratic.github.io/noviolencia.html https://tsunamidemocratic.github.io/noviolencia.html I don't necessarily agree with their actions, but to attempt to take down a website / app on trumped up charges doesn't seem appropriate for an established western democracy...
- ojosilva 7y ago
  As I understand the Spanish police and courts have framed Tsunami Democratic as part of the ongoing terrorism investigation similar to the "Judas Operation" [1], where 7 members of the CDRs have been arrested allegedly with raw materials and instructions to build explosives and were charged with terrorism. Within the investigation, the National Police has tied the CDR's and Tsunami as being the same organization [2]. Not saying they're right or wrong in their alleged charges, arrests or decision to link Tsunami Democratic to terrorism, but it's all being run by the same investigating judge [3] which explains the mindset behind the decision. The presumed "terrorist actions" could be easily justified as preventive and explain the injunctions. [1] https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Judas https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Judas [2] https://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/articulo/seguridad/cdr-mueven-hilos-tsunami-democratic/20191015194753132521.html https://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/articulo/seguridad/cdr... [3] https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/19/inenglish/1571484159_002176.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/19/inenglish/1571484159_00...
  - tassl 7y ago
    For context, other people have been convicted for terrorism with this list of materials: a mask of an activist [1], a printed map of a city [1], bleach, cabbage and a tweet saying "Goku still lives" [2]. But yet the terrorist attack in Barcelona that killed 15 people is not being investigated because of the connection of the master mind with the Spanish CNI [3] and its knowledge of the attack beforehand [4]. [1] https://www.publico.es/public/repressio-precedent-d-adria-i-tamara-carrasco-acusacio-terrorisme-i-rebel-lio-cauria-cap-d-uns-mesos.html https://www.publico.es/public/repressio-precedent-d-adria-i-... [2] https://elpais.com/politica/2018/07/26/actualidad/1532619800_455742.html https://elpais.com/politica/2018/07/26/actualidad/1532619800... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/world/europe/spain-barcelona-attack-imam.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/world/europe/spain-barcel... [4] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/spanish-intelligence-knew-of-terror-cell-ahead-of-barcelona-attack-say-reports-1.3959554 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/spanish-intelli...
kiliancs 7y ago
I'd like to point out that most of the demonstrations where there's been problems (I think calling them violent is an exageration, and also its origin is largely disputed as many blame the police) have nothing to do with Tsunami Democràtic. Tsunami Democràtic's goal is to encourage and coordinate massive civil disobedience and protests, and that's what they've done so far. Their app even has a check box about non-violence you are forced to to log in. It's hard to imagine how they came to the conclusion that this is a terrorist organization except if you take into account the political views of the Spanish government and all its branches and Tsunami Democràtic.
smsm42 7y ago
> but its nothing new It's nothing new but we're getting more and more of it, and if before it was Russian where one doesn't expect much and China where one doesn't expect anything, now it's a EU member country. Pretty soon there would be no country where software freedom still exists. Maybe there isn't already (US banned CAD files that describe weapons, for example). That's sad development.

zozbot234 7y ago

> developed an app that allows people to know where demonstrations are happening Sounds like a bit of welcomed transparency to me. The Spanish police, concerned citizenry, etc. can use the app just as much as anyone else, to prevent things from getting out of hand. (*Edited for consistency with newly-provided info in this HN thread.)

jannes 7y ago
I believe the app requires you to be invited via QR code by an existing member to gain access. Of course, the police would be able to infiltrate this with a bit of effort.
banjodeluxe 7y ago
Yeah I agree that there's a chance that might be the case - might be outrageous misrepresentation, takedown to crackdown on the movement, etc.. But I personally decide to give the system a little trust at least at first and like to think that the Spanish authorities who ordered this will have real reasons to base their decision on - with time we'll see I guess.
- yeahforsureman 7y ago
  With all respect, I guess you haven't been following the Catalonian affair that closely then. To me it unfortunately looks like enforcement of laws around this issue has long become politicized to the point of endangering the rule of law, fair and objective administration of justice and the protection of fundamental rights such as the freedom of speech and assembly.
jarfil 7y ago
It's transparency when the information is about protest planned for the next day or further in the future. It's less clear cut when it becomes more of a "barrier has been breached on this street" along with "cops are moving to this other street" in realtime.
tumetab1 7y ago
Not sure what people opinions are when the judicial system has > the movement Tsunami Democratic has been confirmed as a criminal organization driving people to commit terrorist attacks So any material support to a criminal organization is criminal per se in most jurisdictions.
- enriquto 7y ago
  the quoted sentence is false. The tsunami democratic has not been confirmed as a criminal organization.
joking 7y ago
the app attemps to hide that, it's using geolocation to promote and comunicate only with a subset of the app users, police could infiltrate and gain access to some of the groups, but it will never get access to the full network, so the contrary of transparency.
iagovar 7y ago
> The Spanish police, concerned citizenry, etc. can use the app just as much as anyone else, to prevent things from getting out of hand They can't. The app uses some kind of location data to silo information. So for example if they want to make an action in Tarragona, people from Barcelona is not going to know about it. It is likely, seeing some threads of people who have analyzed the application, that the administrators, or whoever is behind it, will be able to know how many people are available in a particular location, and isolate that information in a kind of opsec.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Can't you spoof location data?
  - iagovar 7y ago
    I guess so, I didn't do the analysis, but I'm pretty sure the guys who did the app already thought about that possibility.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

iagovar 7y ago

IMO the accusation of terrorism is too much, but honestly some of the actions are worrying. I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from, but I understand why so many Catalonians are angry and protest for. But I also understand what different police forces are facing. You get actions like putting trees and blocks of concrete on railroads, making it very dangerous for passengers and workers. They can't just let that happen. And they see this people is using P2P technology which is almost impossible to control, so they use all legal means at their disposal. I'm not a legal expert but I'd bet that going through the terrorism route is the only way they have to do something about it. We could argue for years about what's legitimate and what's not, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect the police forces to do nothing.

zozbot234 7y ago
> You get actions like putting trees and blocks of concrete on railroads, making it very dangerous for passengers and workers. There are laws against doing such things on the books, I'd assume - even if the motive were "just" to block railway traffic. The government should focus on investigating those responsible. It's not at all clear that blocking an app that might have countless legitimate, non-violent uses is the right choice.
- iagovar 7y ago
  If I was from the police I'd probably want to block the chance to coordinate such attacks, not only do an investigation to track certain individuals. What would be the point to spend many resources to put a guy or a few of them in jail when they can be easily replaced.
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    Of course it depends how many people are involved in such things, and whether the app specifically is allowing them to coordinate these attacks. Most of the commentary so far has been about demonstrations, sometimes turning into violent riots. Purposely sabotaging/obstructing a piece of critical infrastructure is something rather different, although whether it could be defined as "terrorism" is somewhat ambiguous.

komarrian 7y ago

I think you are leaving out two important parts of this conflict. * The police brutality: Spanish police have been clashing with protestors disregarding their own operational guides and using excessive force and have been asked by multiple times to deescalete tensions. You can read more about this here: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/10/spain-authorities-must-deescalate-tensions-and-guarantee-the-right-to-public-assembly/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/10/spain-authori... * Judiciary repression: Two leaders of civic organizations, not politicians, have been handed down sentences of 9 years for sedition which is what sparked this protest.

major505 7y ago

Weel, I guess one can argue that every violent Riot is in itself an act of terrorism.

ryanlol 7y ago

>Following the judge's veredict of the Catalan politicians Not just politicians, but activists too. Jordi Cuixart is doing 9 years for organizing protests.

sparrc 7y ago

> the Github repo for takedowns has plenty - although they seem to usually be coming from China/Russia. The other takedowns are 100% from China and Russia. Spain is joining two of the most censor-heavy (and undemocratic) countries in the world by issuing this takedown.

vitobcn 7y ago

The takedown is referring to charges of terrorism: "the movement Tsunami Democratic has been confirmed as a criminal organization driving people to commit terrorist attacks. Tsunami Democratic's main goal is coordinating these riots and terrorist actions by using any possible mean." Can anybody point me to such terrorist actions? Tsunami Democratic is indeed organizing demonstrations and protests, but I don't understand that to be terrorism, especially if they are doing so repeatedly calling for "non-violence". Straight from their page: https://tsunamidemocratic.github.io/noviolencia.html https://tsunamidemocratic.github.io/noviolencia.html I don't necessarily agree with their actions, but to attempt to take down a website / app on trumped up charges doesn't seem appropriate for an established western democracy...

ojosilva 7y ago
As I understand the Spanish police and courts have framed Tsunami Democratic as part of the ongoing terrorism investigation similar to the "Judas Operation" [1], where 7 members of the CDRs have been arrested allegedly with raw materials and instructions to build explosives and were charged with terrorism. Within the investigation, the National Police has tied the CDR's and Tsunami as being the same organization [2]. Not saying they're right or wrong in their alleged charges, arrests or decision to link Tsunami Democratic to terrorism, but it's all being run by the same investigating judge [3] which explains the mindset behind the decision. The presumed "terrorist actions" could be easily justified as preventive and explain the injunctions. [1] https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Judas https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Judas [2] https://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/articulo/seguridad/cdr-mueven-hilos-tsunami-democratic/20191015194753132521.html https://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/articulo/seguridad/cdr... [3] https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/19/inenglish/1571484159_002176.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/19/inenglish/1571484159_00...
- tassl 7y ago
  For context, other people have been convicted for terrorism with this list of materials: a mask of an activist [1], a printed map of a city [1], bleach, cabbage and a tweet saying "Goku still lives" [2]. But yet the terrorist attack in Barcelona that killed 15 people is not being investigated because of the connection of the master mind with the Spanish CNI [3] and its knowledge of the attack beforehand [4]. [1] https://www.publico.es/public/repressio-precedent-d-adria-i-tamara-carrasco-acusacio-terrorisme-i-rebel-lio-cauria-cap-d-uns-mesos.html https://www.publico.es/public/repressio-precedent-d-adria-i-... [2] https://elpais.com/politica/2018/07/26/actualidad/1532619800_455742.html https://elpais.com/politica/2018/07/26/actualidad/1532619800... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/world/europe/spain-barcelona-attack-imam.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/world/europe/spain-barcel... [4] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/spanish-intelligence-knew-of-terror-cell-ahead-of-barcelona-attack-say-reports-1.3959554 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/spanish-intelli...

kiliancs 7y ago

I'd like to point out that most of the demonstrations where there's been problems (I think calling them violent is an exageration, and also its origin is largely disputed as many blame the police) have nothing to do with Tsunami Democràtic. Tsunami Democràtic's goal is to encourage and coordinate massive civil disobedience and protests, and that's what they've done so far. Their app even has a check box about non-violence you are forced to to log in. It's hard to imagine how they came to the conclusion that this is a terrorist organization except if you take into account the political views of the Spanish government and all its branches and Tsunami Democràtic.

smsm42 7y ago

> but its nothing new It's nothing new but we're getting more and more of it, and if before it was Russian where one doesn't expect much and China where one doesn't expect anything, now it's a EU member country. Pretty soon there would be no country where software freedom still exists. Maybe there isn't already (US banned CAD files that describe weapons, for example). That's sad development.