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Aggressive? More like pitiful. This is export controlled technology sold indiscriminately to third world nation states custom tailored by NSO to target and ent

Aggressive? More like pitiful. This is export controlled technology sold indiscriminately to third world nation states custom tailored by NSO to target and entrap journalists and civilians, many in different locales or conflict zones. Ideally, NSO employees would be in chains In Den Hague charged with the very war crimes they enabled.

notzuck 7y ago
Link to more info about export controls for this kind of technology?
- tjomk 7y ago
  A simple Google would help you. If lazy though: https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2019/consolidated/WA-DOC-18-PUB-001-Public-Docs-Vol-II-2018-List-of-DU-Goods-and-Technologies-and-Munitions-List-Dec-18.pdf https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2019/consolidated/WA-D...
  - notzuck 7y ago
    AM I supposed to be looked at page 92 and onwards? Is there a third party analysis of this? I can't see any part which makes the OPs comments true, just posting a link to a law document doesn't really help me understand. It looks like they sold software that could breach whatsapp security. Where can I read more (something that's understandable) about how this is export restricted? If it was export restricted, who is responsible for enforcing the law?
    - goatsi 7y ago
      The relevant section is category 4 A. 5. (page 79) >4. A. 5. Systems, equipment, and components therefor, specially designed or modified for the generation, command and control, or delivery of "intrusion software".
      - notzuck 7y ago
        Who is enforcing this? These types of sales happen all the time. I sold an exploit to Vupen who then resold it. Did I break the law? Did Vupen break the law?
        goatsi 7y ago
        It's enforced by countries. Do you live in a member state? https://www.wassenaar.org/participating-states/ https://www.wassenaar.org/participating-states/ Click on your country and it should point you to the relevant authority for your government.
        notzuck 7y ago
        I do live in a member state. So I'm completely banned from selling exploits? Vupen know that a lot of what they get sold comes from member states.
        goatsi 7y ago
        Check the relevant laws and regulations for your country (the state section on the Wassenaar website should link to them, or at least name them to look them up). You can probably still sell exploits as long as you get an export license for them. As I understand it, VUPEN was buying exploits before the exploit section was added to the Wassenaar agreement. They attempted to dodge the agreement by moving the company from France to Singapore (which is not a Wassenaar signatory), but then Singapore still added the exploit section to their laws [0]. VUPEN shut down before that law change anyway, due to bad press from the Hacking Team leaks. [0] https://twitter.com/cbekrar/status/704664859372158976 https://twitter.com/cbekrar/status/704664859372158976
        notzuck 7y ago
        Vupen turned into Zerodium. How would this law be enforced if (hypothetically) I took an encrypted pen drive to Zorodium's office, they like what I demo and pay me, they then resell. Who is tracking / investigating what just happened? How would they even know? Would getting an export license even be possible?
bertil 7y ago
Facebook doesn’t have the ability to prosecute people for War Crimes. They can (and routinely) share information with law enforcement for things that they deem abhorrent (human trafficking, notably of children). What they can do —like in this case— is to sue in civil court. What they can also do is to kick the people that they are suing away from their platform for violating their terms. It’s actually not rare (several people involved with Cambridge Analytica were locked out of their account) so “aggressive” is a stretch, but that kind of side-show is representative of the internal tone of the discussion. A friend talked about “their large legal team” and, yes, that’s more to the point. Said legal team has a lot of friends familiar with Den Hague so I wouldn’t be surprised if your wishes become reality.

notzuck 7y ago

Link to more info about export controls for this kind of technology?

tjomk 7y ago
A simple Google would help you. If lazy though: https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2019/consolidated/WA-DOC-18-PUB-001-Public-Docs-Vol-II-2018-List-of-DU-Goods-and-Technologies-and-Munitions-List-Dec-18.pdf https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2019/consolidated/WA-D...
- notzuck 7y ago
  AM I supposed to be looked at page 92 and onwards? Is there a third party analysis of this? I can't see any part which makes the OPs comments true, just posting a link to a law document doesn't really help me understand. It looks like they sold software that could breach whatsapp security. Where can I read more (something that's understandable) about how this is export restricted? If it was export restricted, who is responsible for enforcing the law?
  - goatsi 7y ago
    The relevant section is category 4 A. 5. (page 79) >4. A. 5. Systems, equipment, and components therefor, specially designed or modified for the generation, command and control, or delivery of "intrusion software".
    - notzuck 7y ago
      Who is enforcing this? These types of sales happen all the time. I sold an exploit to Vupen who then resold it. Did I break the law? Did Vupen break the law?
      - goatsi 7y ago
        It's enforced by countries. Do you live in a member state? https://www.wassenaar.org/participating-states/ https://www.wassenaar.org/participating-states/ Click on your country and it should point you to the relevant authority for your government.
        notzuck 7y ago
        I do live in a member state. So I'm completely banned from selling exploits? Vupen know that a lot of what they get sold comes from member states.
        goatsi 7y ago
        Check the relevant laws and regulations for your country (the state section on the Wassenaar website should link to them, or at least name them to look them up). You can probably still sell exploits as long as you get an export license for them. As I understand it, VUPEN was buying exploits before the exploit section was added to the Wassenaar agreement. They attempted to dodge the agreement by moving the company from France to Singapore (which is not a Wassenaar signatory), but then Singapore still added the exploit section to their laws [0]. VUPEN shut down before that law change anyway, due to bad press from the Hacking Team leaks. [0] https://twitter.com/cbekrar/status/704664859372158976 https://twitter.com/cbekrar/status/704664859372158976
        notzuck 7y ago
        Vupen turned into Zerodium. How would this law be enforced if (hypothetically) I took an encrypted pen drive to Zorodium's office, they like what I demo and pay me, they then resell. Who is tracking / investigating what just happened? How would they even know? Would getting an export license even be possible?

bertil 7y ago

Facebook doesn’t have the ability to prosecute people for War Crimes. They can (and routinely) share information with law enforcement for things that they deem abhorrent (human trafficking, notably of children). What they can do —like in this case— is to sue in civil court. What they can also do is to kick the people that they are suing away from their platform for violating their terms. It’s actually not rare (several people involved with Cambridge Analytica were locked out of their account) so “aggressive” is a stretch, but that kind of side-show is representative of the internal tone of the discussion. A friend talked about “their large legal team” and, yes, that’s more to the point. Said legal team has a lot of friends familiar with Den Hague so I wouldn’t be surprised if your wishes become reality.