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My wife works for NSO, Facebook closed down the personal accounts of anyone working for NSO which is quite the aggressive move. I definitely see things warming
by inglor 7y ago
My wife works for NSO, Facebook closed down the personal accounts of anyone working for NSO which is quite the aggressive move. I definitely see things warming up.
- alasdair_ 7y agoNSO are directly implicated in aiding the Saudis murder a US resident and Washington Post journalist. They knew exactly who they were selling to and how their tools would be used. NSO are of the same level of people as those who sold cattle prods to Saddam after knowing how their tool would be used.
- tedivm 7y agoGood. People who work for companies doing immoral things should definitely face repercussions for it.
- sodosopa 7y agoI agree, hopefully Facebook is broken up and prevented from profiting on propaganda and user data.
- hinkley 7y agoIf you're wondering if a bunch of facebook lovers downvoted you, at least one of them wasn't.
- sodosopa 7y agoI appreciate the honesty.
- dang 7y ago"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> Facebook closed down the personal accounts of anyone working for NSO which is quite the aggressive move I’m sure your wife is a lovely lady. But NSO Group is a hostile intelligence asset. They actively undermine Americans and American security interests, here and abroad. It’s not only reasonable for American companies to block them and their affiliates, it would also be reasonable for their travel to the country to be restricted (or monitored in the way a known spy would be).
- sodosopa 7y ago> They actively undermine Americans and American security interests, here and abroad. Are you talking about Facebook or NSO? Because Facebook and Cambridge Analytica did far worse against American interests.
- tedivm 7y agoDo we have to break down into WhatAboutIsm this soon in the conversation? Can't we just agree that they're all awful companies, and the people who work for them should be ashamed of that?
- maximente 7y ago
- olliej 7y agoThe NSO contributed to the murder of a journalist, has repeatedly aided in attacks on human rights activists, and according to the complaint, actively assisted or even ran these "operations". Any of those would have been sufficient to ensure I wouldn't work for them for any amount of money, and I'd quit if I found out about them after I was employed. Honestly, that's blood money.
- sacrificedcapon 7y agoYour "morals" precludes anyone from working at any major company. Let alone companies like WashingtonPost who helped start many illegal wars and led to the death of millions of innocent people with their lies. Using your logic, the murdered journalist took blood money. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/2003/02/06/irrefutable/e598b1be-a78a-4a42-8e1a-c336f7a217f4/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/2003/02/06/i... If you work for pretty much any major company in the world, you are receiving "blood money". If you are working for the US government or any major government, you are receiving "blood money". Can you point me to a company that is "without sin"?
- ian0 7y ago1. I think everyone would agree there is an obvious moral difference between working for your neighbourhood builder who occasionally overcharges and maintaining the fences on a concentration camp. IE there are degrees of harm, we don't deal in black and whites. Working as a kindergarten teacher for a government does not imply you are any more or less responsible for that government going to war than say a local independent farmer. 2. Not many people would conflate working for washington post and helping to kill civilians in the middle east. But perhaps if shown enough evidence they would maybe do so and act accordingly. So knowledge, like the knowledge in this article, enabled the OP to make an ethical decision. 3. Your comment doesn't help anyone. Because you have discounted degrees of harm ("any major company in the world", "any government") and this then undermined the small bit of knowledge imparted (the WP link). The nett effect is a call to inaction.
- eeZah7Ux 7y agoExcellent example of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- stefan_ 7y agoAggressive? More like pitiful. This is export controlled technology sold indiscriminately to third world nation states custom tailored by NSO to target and entrap journalists and civilians, many in different locales or conflict zones. Ideally, NSO employees would be in chains In Den Hague charged with the very war crimes they enabled.
- notzuck 7y agoLink to more info about export controls for this kind of technology?
- tjomk 7y agoA simple Google would help you. If lazy though: https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2019/consolidated/WA-DOC-18-PUB-001-Public-Docs-Vol-II-2018-List-of-DU-Goods-and-Technologies-and-Munitions-List-Dec-18.pdf https://www.wassenaar.org/app/uploads/2019/consolidated/WA-D...
- notzuck 7y agoAM I supposed to be looked at page 92 and onwards? Is there a third party analysis of this? I can't see any part which makes the OPs comments true, just posting a link to a law document doesn't really help me understand. It looks like they sold software that could breach whatsapp security. Where can I read more (something that's understandable) about how this is export restricted? If it was export restricted, who is responsible for enforcing the law?
- markdown 7y agoHow does she sleep at night?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- pnako 7y agoProbably the same as anyone working for Chinese, American, Russian, French, Iranian or Egyptian intelligence services. Many people are patriots and defend their country's interests.
- catalogia 7y agoWhich country was NSO defending when they helped Saudi Arabia murder Khashoggi? As far as I can tell NSO were mercenaries, not patriots.
- rndgermandude 7y agoEven most mercenaries have some code of ethics. And murdering journalists is not in it as acceptable behavior. This is sociopathic thug behavior you'd expect from mafia hitmen.
- pnako 7y agoSaudi Arabia is an Israeli ally. I'm not condoning anything, just pointing out obvious things. NSO Group was founded by Mossad personnel, so it's not surprising that they would sell stuff to their allies.
- catalogia 7y agoI'm a bit skeptical of the idea that it was patriotism for Israel that motivated these people to participate in the murder of a journalist critical of Saudi Arabia, even if Saudi Arabia is an ally of Israel. I'm pretty sure these people are mercs without morals.
- caf 7y agoThis is unsurprising, given that one of the remedies they're asking for is: The lawsuit seeks to have NSO barred from accessing or attempting to access WhatsApp and Facebook’s services...
- onetimemanytime 7y ago>>I definitely see things warming up. I think torched is the right word. As in, NSO will be torched, and having them on your resume is not gonna be a good thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- lawnchair_larry 7y agoHow does she feel about the whole thing?
- inglor 7y agoPeople working for NSO believe they are doing good for mankind and helping stop terrorism. I am not buying the shitty nerative but still love her :)
- ganzuul 7y agoI'd love to hear about any examples good things they have done. The information currently available paints a bleak picture.
- inglor 7y agoSadly NSO can't share their customers and they actually don't know many of them and are not exposed to the data. Whomever gets vetted by the US government and the hr Israeli government gets a copy. I really dislike NSO to the point I don't join my wife on company vacations but she is her own person and I support her choises. She is not in software and the finance and accounting market here isn't nearly as nice.
- inglor 7y agoI am surprised I can't edit this on HN (Or missed the UI? I've been using HN for years) and was very tired - but 'choices' :]
- danbruc 7y agoYou can only edit comments for two hours.
- krn 7y ago> Whomever gets vetted by the US government and the hr Israeli government gets a copy. That explains how Saudis got access to NSO products.
- rodgerd 7y agoHow does she feel about her employer's role in aiding torturing journalists to death?
- inglor 7y agoShe claims they are more regulated then other companies with the tech and like all weapons mistakes can happen. Also that they did not do a lot of the stuff they are blamed for. I personally don't believe them but she does :)
- rodgerd 7y agoYou'd think that "the banality of evil" would be a phrase with more resonance in Israel.
- rndgermandude 7y agoYour wife should stop working for NSO. Or rather, never even started working for them.
- inglor 7y agoI would not work for NSO myself but I am extremely privileged to have written some popular open source stuff and it's a great market for software. My wife is in finance, it was this or an abusive boss and constant unpaid overtime. For what it's worth I think it's the same as working for any weapons producing company (a big no no for me but plenty of people there who are very idiological)
- rndgermandude 7y agoNot really, no. Weapons manufacturers, as despicable some of them are, do not set out or actively help murder civilians and journalists. Some of them might have in the past, but those are criminals, first and foremost, just as NGO as a bunch of criminals in my humble opinion. >My wife is in finance, it was this or an abusive boss and constant unpaid overtime. Or not working at all, considering you are so "privileged". Or working for some NGO, probono even, if it's about finding meaning in life and not about paying the bills. Or working as a walmart greeter or meter maid or orderly in a hospital. I'd rather work my really shit orderly job I used to work years ago, than work for scum like NSO. Given she works in finance, she sounds educated enough and privileged enough to find a nice job that does not involve deliberately targeting and killing civilians. Maybe less "prestigious" or paying less, but still enough to make a nice living on your double income. I am not buying your excuse, even tho you and your wife might be buying it yourself. Rationalization can be a problem.
- repolfx 7y agoThe whole point of weapons is to help murder civilians. If weapons were only useful when pointed at military personnel, nobody would fear an invading army or even bother putting up resistance at all: what is that army going to do, exactly? Just get into street fights mano-mano without weapons? Weapons are created so they can be pointed at living things, regardless of who they work for. I'm not defending NSO but let's not pretend selling exploits is any different to e.g. a Tazer or rifle manufacturer.
- WhatDoIKn0w 7y agoI think this IS probably too aggressive and this move probably would not change anything but make such organization just more hostile towards Facebook and their products. I don’t see them as such a big deal, they are somewhat monitored (might be imperfect) aside from the fact that every intelligence corps (including US) is also attacking civilians, tourists and more - even if not with “bad purpose”, sometimes it might even save lives (if they prevent a terrorist attack or so, using that technology). So why not let other countries have this ability? Obviously if you give someone a weapon it might turn against you but how can you be so sure it won’t help defend the lives of their citizens? Everyone is using this “weapon” the same way, the only question is on what side you’re on. In my opinion, this is not a very destructive weapon that actually risks people’s lives so it’s fair to share, it will also get there one way or another.
- keyme 7y agoThat's straight from a Black Mirror episode... Unsurprisingly no one here cares, because NSO bad.
- bertil 7y agoIt’s not that rare: breaking terms of services will get your kicked out quite rapidly. Being a little assertive with your marketing will get you a couple of warnings and temporary bans but systematic efforts, after Facebook sent Cease & Desist letters, etc. will. Being one of the very few able to hack WhatsApp, refusing to submit the generous bug bounties but instead using that to get US journalists killed… that will get you at the top of the naughty list. I understand that, without details, OC’s wife might be an innocent accountant, someone motivated by good values but misinformed or an active and knowledgeable participant to gruesome abuses. We can agree that Facebook doesn’t know yet. I would understand why once the problem is detected, Facebook might want to take precautions and only revise their individual bans later.
- keyme 7y agoThe morals of these employees aren't at question here. The problem is that Facebook, a private company not answerable to anyone, get to decide who is naughty and who isn't, while being a monopoly on online communications.
- bertil 7y agoThey get to decide who can use their service, based on whether they abuse other users. That’s not controversial.
- awaythrowitnow 7y agoTell her to stop violating our fucking right to privacy. I hope your family suffers for her crimes against humanity.
- hannob 7y ago"They deleted my social media account just because I assisted in the murder of a human rights activst, how aggressive!"
- buboard 7y agoAw shoot. All they need to do is spy on a few high ranking FB people and blackmail them with their dirty laundry to get their accounts back. A walk in the park for them
- notacoward 7y agoI don't generally condone punishing employees for what their employers do, but this is a company whose whole business centers on unauthorized control of private resources. It's not at all a stretch to suppose that they exert such control over their own employees' accounts, or would consider doing so, making those accounts effectively proxies for the company. It's unfortunate that the employees are caught in the middle, but their inconvenience (this is social media not bank accounts) is outweighed by other concerns.