8 ms·

Also in Spanish news: there was a separation movement leading to the arrests and jailing of separatist leaders after 90% of the population votes for separation.

Also in Spanish news: there was a separation movement leading to the arrests and jailing of separatist leaders after 90% of the population votes for separation. The leaders got something like 15 years of jail time. There have been massive protests for weeks now https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-50194846 https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-50194846

rolae 7y ago
While true, the number of 90% is a little misleading. The vote was declared unconstitutional and illegal by Spanish government, so many people against a separation did not show up to vote. However with a voter turnout of 43%, it is still a strong signal in favor of separation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_refe...
- wklauss 7y ago
  It is extremely misleading. Support for secession in Catalonia hovers around 40%.
  - hutzlibu 7y ago
    Sources?
    - wklauss 7y ago
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/10/11/the-myth-of-massive-support-for-independence-in-catalonia/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/10/1... The last wave from the Centre d'Studis d'Opinió from the Generalitat (Local Government), measures support for independence at 44% vs 48% who wish to remain part of Spain. http://www.rtve.es/contenidos/documentos/barometro_ceo_julio_2019.pdf http://www.rtve.es/contenidos/documentos/barometro_ceo_julio...
      - hutzlibu 7y ago
        "Altogether, parties supporting Catalan independence received 48 percent of the vote." 48>40 So from far away, I would question the neutrality of the Centre d'Studis d'Opinió. Also, if the numbers are right, then why on earth does the spanish government escalate and not just let them have a referendum which fails and have peace afterwards?
        portillo 7y ago
        > So from far away, I would question the neutrality of the Centre d'Studis d'Opinió. They are the "Department of Statistics" of Catalonia, and they are controlled by the local government (pro-independence), so i am not sure why would they be biased to report lower support than the actual one. Our Constitution does not consider secession of part of a territory. To hold a referendum, they will have to change the constitution first, which is unlikely to happen in the short term. Also, I am not sure that a referèndum is the best way to settle this conflict. I think that other options that can gather the support of more than 50% of the population would offer a better solution. (i.e., how do you build a new country when half of the population feels strongly about it?)
        enriquto 7y ago
        > how do you build a new country when half of the population feels strongly about it this is exactly the current situation with spain! About half of catalans feel very strongly against the spanish state. This is obviously not sustainable. But the spaniards prefer to bully the catalans, to earn votes elsewhere, than to solve the problem once and for all by holding a binding independence referendum. I for one couldn't care less anymore about the spanish position. I do not consider spain a legitimate state, and we will have to free ourselves from it by any means necessary.
        harperlee 7y ago
        You seem to have forgotten that half of catalans want to keep being spanish. This is not catalans vs. the rest, however convenient that narrative is.
spanxx 7y ago
How is that related to this piece of information? Spanish Constitution does not allow regions (Autonomous Communities in Spain's legal jargon) to make referendums. What's the issue here?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- seniorivn 7y ago
  As long as they identify themselves as not Spanish nation, they can claim that they have a right for independence granted by UN To achieve it though they will have to convince the whole world that it is true and more important then anyone's relationship with Spain
  - spanxx 7y ago
    No country allows self-determination of it's regions. Do you think that USA would allow Texas or Lakota Nation to secede?
    - voicedYoda 7y ago
      Actually, some of us wish they would.
      - spanxx 7y ago
        What's the minimum size of people to ask for independence? One person, one thousand, one million?
        autoexec 7y ago
        I imagine it's dependent on boundaries not individuals. A nation, an island, a state, or a city might ask for independence, but not a person or a group of people. In the US we even have semi-independent spaces like reservations and embassy buildings where a single complex or structure is considered separate from the nation that surrounds it.
Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
Where did you get the "90% of the population" number when the total turnout for the referendum was 43%?
ahbyb 7y ago
90% of 43% turnout = 38% of the population. You lost.
rockinghigh 7y ago
From your article: "a recent survey suggests Catalonia's residents oppose independence by about 48% to 44%".
hevi_jos 7y ago
90 %!! This is absolutely false. In Spain it is legal to want independence, it is legal to create political parties that go for it, legally, BUT it is not legal to go against the law. Creating a referendum is not legal because in Spain the sovereignty is in the general Spanish population, not in the local population. This is not Scotland, Catalonia has never been a sovereign state that decided to join a union preserving its sovereignty. Spain was created as the union(by marriage) of the reigns of Castilla and Aragón, that included Catalonia. The secesionist organized a referendum and they themselves counted the votes, like Stalin said it is not important who votes but who counted the votes. They added a million to the real number. The local population holds over 50% of secessionist votes. BTW the joke of gobertment that Spain has given the Catalan local Government(managed by secessionist!!) the management of prisons there. So they will be released soon after the elections, because the president is there thanks to the support of secessionists.
- cs02rm0 7y ago
  This is not Scotland, Catalonia has never been a sovereign state that decided to join a union preserving its sovereignty. That's not what happened with Scotland.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
pfortuny 7y ago
Come on: 90% of voters in an ILLEGAL referendum? how can that be representative of Anything? There is discussion but let us keep it honest.
outime 7y ago
Could you explain how those news are related to the article? I’m trying to connect the dots but perhaps I’m missing something.
- xondono 7y ago
  Well, launching a study that could potentially endanger the privacy of millions while the prime minister and his staff compares to terrorists thousands of protesters who happen to have organized themselves via mobile apps.. It certainly raises some doubts
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    > the prime minister and his staff compares to terrorists thousands of protesters who happen to have organized themselves via mobile apps Organized themselves to create non-stop disturbes, block repeatedly several main roads, attack systematically police (to the point of almost killing a policeman and hurting thousands), burn cars and bikes, and creating damages only to the street furniture in Barcelona valued in 3,5 Million euro. The aditional damage to the economy and tourism has been estimated in more than three hundreds millions euro lost. I would love to hear your definion of terrorism. Must be a very interesting one. This does not change the fact that the massive surveillance that the government is announcing, has never happened before, sets a very dark precedent, has surpassed all reasonable limits and is an error. The secret services must be running wild and at full power without nobody trying to stop them
    - xondono 7y ago
      My definition of terrorism does not include voting, I can tell you that much. Peaceful demonstrations were also organized, and there’s no ex ante way with this system to target the violations to perpetrators (or to set up any judicial safety check, although in Spain I’m told that would not make much of a difference). Spain keeps crossing all of the red lines we have set as europeans, and yet our governments will do nothing because they want to avoid troubling the euro even more. This is a recipe for disaster if I ever saw one.
pvaldes 7y ago
> after 90% of the population votes for separation No matter how many times this was repeated it feels still relevant to explain it; cows do not fly and 1,6 millions is neither the 90% of 46,7 millions, nor the 43% of 46,7 millions.

rolae 7y ago

While true, the number of 90% is a little misleading. The vote was declared unconstitutional and illegal by Spanish government, so many people against a separation did not show up to vote. However with a voter turnout of 43%, it is still a strong signal in favor of separation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_refe...

wklauss 7y ago
It is extremely misleading. Support for secession in Catalonia hovers around 40%.
- hutzlibu 7y ago
  Sources?
  - wklauss 7y ago
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/10/11/the-myth-of-massive-support-for-independence-in-catalonia/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/10/1... The last wave from the Centre d'Studis d'Opinió from the Generalitat (Local Government), measures support for independence at 44% vs 48% who wish to remain part of Spain. http://www.rtve.es/contenidos/documentos/barometro_ceo_julio_2019.pdf http://www.rtve.es/contenidos/documentos/barometro_ceo_julio...
    - hutzlibu 7y ago
      "Altogether, parties supporting Catalan independence received 48 percent of the vote." 48>40 So from far away, I would question the neutrality of the Centre d'Studis d'Opinió. Also, if the numbers are right, then why on earth does the spanish government escalate and not just let them have a referendum which fails and have peace afterwards?
      - portillo 7y ago
        > So from far away, I would question the neutrality of the Centre d'Studis d'Opinió. They are the "Department of Statistics" of Catalonia, and they are controlled by the local government (pro-independence), so i am not sure why would they be biased to report lower support than the actual one. Our Constitution does not consider secession of part of a territory. To hold a referendum, they will have to change the constitution first, which is unlikely to happen in the short term. Also, I am not sure that a referèndum is the best way to settle this conflict. I think that other options that can gather the support of more than 50% of the population would offer a better solution. (i.e., how do you build a new country when half of the population feels strongly about it?)
        enriquto 7y ago
        > how do you build a new country when half of the population feels strongly about it this is exactly the current situation with spain! About half of catalans feel very strongly against the spanish state. This is obviously not sustainable. But the spaniards prefer to bully the catalans, to earn votes elsewhere, than to solve the problem once and for all by holding a binding independence referendum. I for one couldn't care less anymore about the spanish position. I do not consider spain a legitimate state, and we will have to free ourselves from it by any means necessary.
        harperlee 7y ago
        You seem to have forgotten that half of catalans want to keep being spanish. This is not catalans vs. the rest, however convenient that narrative is.

spanxx 7y ago

How is that related to this piece of information? Spanish Constitution does not allow regions (Autonomous Communities in Spain's legal jargon) to make referendums. What's the issue here?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
seniorivn 7y ago
As long as they identify themselves as not Spanish nation, they can claim that they have a right for independence granted by UN To achieve it though they will have to convince the whole world that it is true and more important then anyone's relationship with Spain
- spanxx 7y ago
  No country allows self-determination of it's regions. Do you think that USA would allow Texas or Lakota Nation to secede?
  - voicedYoda 7y ago
    Actually, some of us wish they would.
    - spanxx 7y ago
      What's the minimum size of people to ask for independence? One person, one thousand, one million?
      - autoexec 7y ago
        I imagine it's dependent on boundaries not individuals. A nation, an island, a state, or a city might ask for independence, but not a person or a group of people. In the US we even have semi-independent spaces like reservations and embassy buildings where a single complex or structure is considered separate from the nation that surrounds it.

Erlich_Bachman 7y ago

Where did you get the "90% of the population" number when the total turnout for the referendum was 43%?

ahbyb 7y ago

90% of 43% turnout = 38% of the population. You lost.

rockinghigh 7y ago

From your article: "a recent survey suggests Catalonia's residents oppose independence by about 48% to 44%".

hevi_jos 7y ago

90 %!! This is absolutely false. In Spain it is legal to want independence, it is legal to create political parties that go for it, legally, BUT it is not legal to go against the law. Creating a referendum is not legal because in Spain the sovereignty is in the general Spanish population, not in the local population. This is not Scotland, Catalonia has never been a sovereign state that decided to join a union preserving its sovereignty. Spain was created as the union(by marriage) of the reigns of Castilla and Aragón, that included Catalonia. The secesionist organized a referendum and they themselves counted the votes, like Stalin said it is not important who votes but who counted the votes. They added a million to the real number. The local population holds over 50% of secessionist votes. BTW the joke of gobertment that Spain has given the Catalan local Government(managed by secessionist!!) the management of prisons there. So they will be released soon after the elections, because the president is there thanks to the support of secessionists.

cs02rm0 7y ago
This is not Scotland, Catalonia has never been a sovereign state that decided to join a union preserving its sovereignty. That's not what happened with Scotland.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

pfortuny 7y ago

Come on: 90% of voters in an ILLEGAL referendum? how can that be representative of Anything? There is discussion but let us keep it honest.

outime 7y ago

Could you explain how those news are related to the article? I’m trying to connect the dots but perhaps I’m missing something.

xondono 7y ago
Well, launching a study that could potentially endanger the privacy of millions while the prime minister and his staff compares to terrorists thousands of protesters who happen to have organized themselves via mobile apps.. It certainly raises some doubts
- pvaldes 7y ago
  > the prime minister and his staff compares to terrorists thousands of protesters who happen to have organized themselves via mobile apps Organized themselves to create non-stop disturbes, block repeatedly several main roads, attack systematically police (to the point of almost killing a policeman and hurting thousands), burn cars and bikes, and creating damages only to the street furniture in Barcelona valued in 3,5 Million euro. The aditional damage to the economy and tourism has been estimated in more than three hundreds millions euro lost. I would love to hear your definion of terrorism. Must be a very interesting one. This does not change the fact that the massive surveillance that the government is announcing, has never happened before, sets a very dark precedent, has surpassed all reasonable limits and is an error. The secret services must be running wild and at full power without nobody trying to stop them
  - xondono 7y ago
    My definition of terrorism does not include voting, I can tell you that much. Peaceful demonstrations were also organized, and there’s no ex ante way with this system to target the violations to perpetrators (or to set up any judicial safety check, although in Spain I’m told that would not make much of a difference). Spain keeps crossing all of the red lines we have set as europeans, and yet our governments will do nothing because they want to avoid troubling the euro even more. This is a recipe for disaster if I ever saw one.

pvaldes 7y ago

> after 90% of the population votes for separation No matter how many times this was repeated it feels still relevant to explain it; cows do not fly and 1,6 millions is neither the 90% of 46,7 millions, nor the 43% of 46,7 millions.