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It looks like the manager was right and Francis wasn’t “mature enough” for that promotion. One thing companies overlook is employee loyalty. In hindsight, they

It looks like the manager was right and Francis wasn’t “mature enough” for that promotion. One thing companies overlook is employee loyalty. In hindsight, they should have gotten rid of Francis and kept Lee. Now they lost 2 engineers and maybe even the manager.

FillardMillmore 7y ago
From what I read, it sounds like Francis kinda got screwed by being vetoed for promotion. There was at least a possible conflict of interest and the fact that Lee knew about the particulars enough to gloat about it doesn't look good for the company. Employee loyalty is important to some degree. But knowing when your loyalty is being taken advantage of is also important.
quaice 7y ago
You would rather reward Lee's toxic behavior than Francis' loyalty to the company by pointing out Lee's technical issues?
snagglegaggle 7y ago
Which part of it isn't mature enough? He's just trying to argue for higher compensation. It looks like he is worth it based on how many problems he can cause for the company.
randyrand 7y ago
Lee gloating to Francis about not getting a raise is much less mature.
yomly 7y ago
From what I've read, I'm not convinced the company has done enough to earn Francis' loyalty. Francis has already invested ~years of time in this company and they've allowed other toxic people to poopoo his career. Sure they've fired Lee (who clearly needs to go) but Ling has yet to see any consequence, and they've stalled on reevaluating Ling's veto. In the meantime Francis apparently has to stomach this news and wait til the next promotion cycle in six months, one year? This is Francis' life - why should he waste that opportunity cost when he could be {saving for a house|supporting a family} (or some other life commitment). This is what you get when everything in your business is a process and dehumanized: to the stakeholders other than Francis, this is a headache - a fire to fight in your business as usual. To Francis this is trajectory altering, of course he has a right to be furious.
- YayamiOmate 7y ago
  It depends what business model and culture you want to nurture. Does enough loyalty stop before stockholm syndrome or even after? Keep in mind that Francis got promotion vetoed against meritorious reason out of spite thanks to collusion of an inept engineer. What loyalty companu showed? Still considering promotion he would have gotten? That is not even amending damage done by politics. Of course you'll get loyalty from inept people, they don't have much else to offer. I am not sure if that's a value you're looking for. You wanna have politicians, you promote loyalty, you wanna have engineers you promote merit and skills.
TheCoelacanth 7y ago
Going along without complaint when you are being screwed isn't maturity or loyalty, it's boot-licking. The manager should be fired. Regardless of whether the veto was correct or not, it was very unprofessional to leak the reason that the promotion was denied to other co-workers. That unprofessionalism put the company in a very bad position.
- dependenttypes 7y ago
  The transparency is the only good thing that he did in that story.
  - TheCoelacanth 7y ago
    Telling the person affected by the decision or even making it public would be transparency. Telling some other person but not the person actually affected is gossip.
me_me_me 7y ago
You are talking about a dev who pointed out most likely significant issue with Lee's design. Lee instead of accepting and fixing mistake, attempted to get Francis fired over it. Failing at that he managed to get one of his friend to deny Francis' deserved promotion. Then gloated about it so Francis found out. I don't see a single reason for loyalty to a company, especially this one.
madhadron 7y ago
> One thing companies overlook is employee loyalty. Loyalty? Why would anyone have loyalty to a company unless the company has shown significant loyalty to them first? And how would a company show loyalty? I don't mean your team or manager covering for you when something comes up or things like that. That should engender loyalty to those people. That is different from loyalty to the company. I might go further and say that loyalty to a company is wrongheaded. Loyalty to mission or ideal, sure. Loyalty to people. Loyalty to the function in society that needs to be fulfilled in order for society to work (garbage has to be picked up, sewers have to function). But a company? It's an exchange of my time acting in their interests for their money. A legal abstraction and corresponding rituals that we use in our society as a unit of organization. It's like being loyal to your filing system. And after the nonsense Francis dealt with, it's hard to imagine why he would feel loyalty to anyone involved in the direction and management of the company. He probably should have chosen his coworkers that he used for references more carefully, too.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  Loyalty? Why would anyone have loyalty to a company unless the company has shown significant loyalty to them first? Loyalty to a company goes hand in glove with equity participation.
faissaloo 7y ago
Allowing yourself to be stepped on is not maturity, it's cuckoldry.
mattnewton 7y ago
It's not like Francis would have been the last employee to be soured on the company by Lee's behavior. The promotion denial was beyond petty and toxic.

FillardMillmore 7y ago

From what I read, it sounds like Francis kinda got screwed by being vetoed for promotion. There was at least a possible conflict of interest and the fact that Lee knew about the particulars enough to gloat about it doesn't look good for the company. Employee loyalty is important to some degree. But knowing when your loyalty is being taken advantage of is also important.

quaice 7y ago

You would rather reward Lee's toxic behavior than Francis' loyalty to the company by pointing out Lee's technical issues?

snagglegaggle 7y ago

Which part of it isn't mature enough? He's just trying to argue for higher compensation. It looks like he is worth it based on how many problems he can cause for the company.

randyrand 7y ago

Lee gloating to Francis about not getting a raise is much less mature.

yomly 7y ago

From what I've read, I'm not convinced the company has done enough to earn Francis' loyalty. Francis has already invested ~years of time in this company and they've allowed other toxic people to poopoo his career. Sure they've fired Lee (who clearly needs to go) but Ling has yet to see any consequence, and they've stalled on reevaluating Ling's veto. In the meantime Francis apparently has to stomach this news and wait til the next promotion cycle in six months, one year? This is Francis' life - why should he waste that opportunity cost when he could be {saving for a house|supporting a family} (or some other life commitment). This is what you get when everything in your business is a process and dehumanized: to the stakeholders other than Francis, this is a headache - a fire to fight in your business as usual. To Francis this is trajectory altering, of course he has a right to be furious.

YayamiOmate 7y ago
It depends what business model and culture you want to nurture. Does enough loyalty stop before stockholm syndrome or even after? Keep in mind that Francis got promotion vetoed against meritorious reason out of spite thanks to collusion of an inept engineer. What loyalty companu showed? Still considering promotion he would have gotten? That is not even amending damage done by politics. Of course you'll get loyalty from inept people, they don't have much else to offer. I am not sure if that's a value you're looking for. You wanna have politicians, you promote loyalty, you wanna have engineers you promote merit and skills.

TheCoelacanth 7y ago

Going along without complaint when you are being screwed isn't maturity or loyalty, it's boot-licking. The manager should be fired. Regardless of whether the veto was correct or not, it was very unprofessional to leak the reason that the promotion was denied to other co-workers. That unprofessionalism put the company in a very bad position.

dependenttypes 7y ago
The transparency is the only good thing that he did in that story.
- TheCoelacanth 7y ago
  Telling the person affected by the decision or even making it public would be transparency. Telling some other person but not the person actually affected is gossip.

me_me_me 7y ago

You are talking about a dev who pointed out most likely significant issue with Lee's design. Lee instead of accepting and fixing mistake, attempted to get Francis fired over it. Failing at that he managed to get one of his friend to deny Francis' deserved promotion. Then gloated about it so Francis found out. I don't see a single reason for loyalty to a company, especially this one.

madhadron 7y ago

> One thing companies overlook is employee loyalty. Loyalty? Why would anyone have loyalty to a company unless the company has shown significant loyalty to them first? And how would a company show loyalty? I don't mean your team or manager covering for you when something comes up or things like that. That should engender loyalty to those people. That is different from loyalty to the company. I might go further and say that loyalty to a company is wrongheaded. Loyalty to mission or ideal, sure. Loyalty to people. Loyalty to the function in society that needs to be fulfilled in order for society to work (garbage has to be picked up, sewers have to function). But a company? It's an exchange of my time acting in their interests for their money. A legal abstraction and corresponding rituals that we use in our society as a unit of organization. It's like being loyal to your filing system. And after the nonsense Francis dealt with, it's hard to imagine why he would feel loyalty to anyone involved in the direction and management of the company. He probably should have chosen his coworkers that he used for references more carefully, too.

goatinaboat 7y ago
Loyalty? Why would anyone have loyalty to a company unless the company has shown significant loyalty to them first? Loyalty to a company goes hand in glove with equity participation.

faissaloo 7y ago

Allowing yourself to be stepped on is not maturity, it's cuckoldry.

mattnewton 7y ago

It's not like Francis would have been the last employee to be soured on the company by Lee's behavior. The promotion denial was beyond petty and toxic.