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I wonder how they will respond if an account gets over the allowed threshold of spam complaints. I could see them responding either by: a) Cutting off the cu

by bromley 16y ago

I wonder how they will respond if an account gets over the allowed threshold of spam complaints. I could see them responding either by: a) Cutting off the customer's use of Simple Email Service; or b) (Much much worse) cutting off the customer's AWS account, including EC2 and so on. I'm guessing a), but it would be nice to have assurances against b). Otherwise a false positive on the "they're using SES to spam" detection system could be catastrophic. The SES docs just point to the standard customer agreement - http://aws.amazon.com/agreement/ http://aws.amazon.com/agreement/ - which doesn't appear to make any specific mention of SES terms and conditions.

fooandbarify 16y ago
How would legitimate use be falsely flagged as spam in large numbers? Other than a malicious conspiracy of some sort, I don't understand why a disproportionate number of e-mail recipients would target legitimate mail as spam. Am I missing something?
- izak30 16y ago
  Well, illegitimate use has to be handled appropriately as well, or we're in a "This is why we can't have nice things" scenario.
- bromley 16y ago
  All sorts of things can lead people to erroneously assume that an email is spam (and mark it as such). For example, if your app sends out an automated email that isn't clear about what site/service it relates to, a proportion of recipients are likely to mark it as spam without reading it and figuring out who its from. Few people have time to read email that looks to them like spam. Or, if your company or service emails its list of subscribers for the first time in months, quite likely half the list will have forgotten who you are and the fact that they opted in to your list in the first place. And a disproportionate number of them will mark your email as spam. Or if people sign up for MyBrandedWebsite.com, but then receive an email from Software Company X (the company behind MyBrandedWebsite.com), people won't recognize the link, and a proportion will mark the email as spam. It's a rookie mistake on the part of Software Company X, but it happens all the time. Ultimately, minimizing spam reports requires a lot more than double opt in and an unsubscribe link. Amazon will be keen to minimize spam reports for emails sent through their system, because they'll need to ensure that their deliverability rates stay high. So they'll need good automated systems to detect spammers. But email/spam detection is an inherently fuzzy business, and false positives are inevitable. If a false positive could bring down an entire service hosted on AWS, even if just for a few hours, then using SES starts to look pretty risky.
- tedunangst 16y ago
  People sign up. People get tired of your email. Clicking spam is easier than clicking unsubscribe (which people are also taught not to click on). Both AOL and Yahoo have been pretty aggressive about banning mail servers that send too much "spam", which in several cases was a legitimate mailing list people had to ask to subscribe to.
  - Travis 16y ago
    I've seen some aggressive stuff out of Excite, as well (although I only know a few people who use them). One other reason someone might hit "Report Spam" rather than unsubscribe: your unsubscribe page requires an account login (rather than unique hash) to unsub. If I can't remember that login, and I'm exasperated by the company already, I'll hit the Report Spam button just b/c it's so much easier. Email unsubscribes that are behind login screens are the devil.
    - danudey 16y ago
      For years, people have been told 'don't click on "Unsubscribe" in spam, it just tells people that your e-mail address really exists'. Except that people can't tell the difference between 'e-mail I don't want and never asked for' and 'e-mail I signed up for but don't remember', so they click the 'spam' button automatically. For a lot of people, the 'spam' button is actually the 'I don't want to get these e-mails anymore' button. This is why companies like AOL, etc. have feedback loops. You register yourself with them, and you set your system up to handle spam complaints. When a user complains about a legitimate message, you just remove them from your list. If you don't have those feedback loops set up, then AOL assumes you're being a dick (and/or the spam complaints go to the IP address owners, who've registered themselves already).
izak30 16y ago
We have had our entire account at threat of termination because of spam complaints. Here is the scenario: We aim to be for designers what heroku is for developers, so we resell amazon's service. A designer's client (Small business, medical industry) was mailing SPAM emails from yet another party's shady service, but linking to the AWS-hosted website. Amazon sent a semi-threatening email directly to me, along with the email in question so I could deal with the culprit. It happened twice. The second time us, and the small business client needed to part ways so that I could keep ensuring AWS that we were being good stewards of their IP addresses.

by bromley 16y ago

fooandbarify 16y ago

How would legitimate use be falsely flagged as spam in large numbers? Other than a malicious conspiracy of some sort, I don't understand why a disproportionate number of e-mail recipients would target legitimate mail as spam. Am I missing something?

izak30 16y ago
Well, illegitimate use has to be handled appropriately as well, or we're in a "This is why we can't have nice things" scenario.
bromley 16y ago
All sorts of things can lead people to erroneously assume that an email is spam (and mark it as such). For example, if your app sends out an automated email that isn't clear about what site/service it relates to, a proportion of recipients are likely to mark it as spam without reading it and figuring out who its from. Few people have time to read email that looks to them like spam. Or, if your company or service emails its list of subscribers for the first time in months, quite likely half the list will have forgotten who you are and the fact that they opted in to your list in the first place. And a disproportionate number of them will mark your email as spam. Or if people sign up for MyBrandedWebsite.com, but then receive an email from Software Company X (the company behind MyBrandedWebsite.com), people won't recognize the link, and a proportion will mark the email as spam. It's a rookie mistake on the part of Software Company X, but it happens all the time. Ultimately, minimizing spam reports requires a lot more than double opt in and an unsubscribe link. Amazon will be keen to minimize spam reports for emails sent through their system, because they'll need to ensure that their deliverability rates stay high. So they'll need good automated systems to detect spammers. But email/spam detection is an inherently fuzzy business, and false positives are inevitable. If a false positive could bring down an entire service hosted on AWS, even if just for a few hours, then using SES starts to look pretty risky.
tedunangst 16y ago
People sign up. People get tired of your email. Clicking spam is easier than clicking unsubscribe (which people are also taught not to click on). Both AOL and Yahoo have been pretty aggressive about banning mail servers that send too much "spam", which in several cases was a legitimate mailing list people had to ask to subscribe to.
- Travis 16y ago
  I've seen some aggressive stuff out of Excite, as well (although I only know a few people who use them). One other reason someone might hit "Report Spam" rather than unsubscribe: your unsubscribe page requires an account login (rather than unique hash) to unsub. If I can't remember that login, and I'm exasperated by the company already, I'll hit the Report Spam button just b/c it's so much easier. Email unsubscribes that are behind login screens are the devil.
  - danudey 16y ago
    For years, people have been told 'don't click on "Unsubscribe" in spam, it just tells people that your e-mail address really exists'. Except that people can't tell the difference between 'e-mail I don't want and never asked for' and 'e-mail I signed up for but don't remember', so they click the 'spam' button automatically. For a lot of people, the 'spam' button is actually the 'I don't want to get these e-mails anymore' button. This is why companies like AOL, etc. have feedback loops. You register yourself with them, and you set your system up to handle spam complaints. When a user complains about a legitimate message, you just remove them from your list. If you don't have those feedback loops set up, then AOL assumes you're being a dick (and/or the spam complaints go to the IP address owners, who've registered themselves already).

izak30 16y ago

We have had our entire account at threat of termination because of spam complaints. Here is the scenario: We aim to be for designers what heroku is for developers, so we resell amazon's service. A designer's client (Small business, medical industry) was mailing SPAM emails from yet another party's shady service, but linking to the AWS-hosted website. Amazon sent a semi-threatening email directly to me, along with the email in question so I could deal with the culprit. It happened twice. The second time us, and the small business client needed to part ways so that I could keep ensuring AWS that we were being good stewards of their IP addresses.