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Activism-driven policy is generally not a great governance model - you might satisfy the 250 employees who signed the letter, but disgruntle 5000 silent others

by cal5k 7y ago

Activism-driven policy is generally not a great governance model - you might satisfy the 250 employees who signed the letter, but disgruntle 5000 silent others who strongly believe it's not Facebook's job to fact-check political ads.

foolrush 7y ago
You realize that women’s right to vote, African American right to vote, LGBTQ marriage laws, minimum wage, and the rest of your progressive legislation was based on activism based policy?
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  I think they're saying that it's bad for business, regardless of whether it brings real-world improvements. Not that that's any better. Kind of worse, actually.
- dijit 7y ago
  It's nice to think of policies I agree with when considering activism, but lets take a look at some I don't. Banning pork[0] for all meals being one of them, or maybe something like being forced to wear a burqa[1]? I mean, if there was a pro-trump activism rally in your workplace and seemingly the majority of workers were pro-trump, would you be silent? I would. (FWIW I'm playing devils advocate, suggesting that not all activism promotes social justice or advancement of society) [0]: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3936/denmark-bans-meatballs https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3936/denmark-bans-meatbal... [1]: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10323303/I-was-forced-to-wear-the-veil-and-I-wish-no-other-woman-had-to-suffer-it.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10323303/I-was-for...
  - foolrush 7y ago
    I wasn’t suggesting that all activism promotes progressive societal values. That is an ethical and epistemological question. I was suggesting that a good number of things that happen are a byproduct of activism. All that said, it cracks me up that HN does a vote down on such basic sociological things. What a culture.
- cal5k 7y ago
  No, those were issues of principle. Activism can promote awareness, but it cannot be your moral compass.
rchaud 7y ago
Any examples to show that this is true?
bArray 7y ago
It's current year, don't you know? Forcing company actions/decisions by will of a handful of vocal people is how things are seemingly done now. But in general, this policy _could_ be good. I think politicians should be responsible for the claims they make and making clearly false statements should at the least be a fine-able offense. Other examples of crappy advertising are "X cures Y" without evidence to prove so, overtly sexual advertising, etc. Internet-based advertising does need to step its game up, perhaps threatening "regulate yourselves, or we'll regulate you" could work as it does in the UK (at least for big tech). I guess that it mostly works in the UK because many of these media companies have a license/legal consequence on the line also.
rexpop 7y ago
Each of us must live with our own conscience. If one Dehomag worker had engaged in "activism" to stop their collusion in the Holocaust, she'd have disgruntled 5,000 "silent" Nazis. The fact is, Facebook's algorithms mediate our cultural superstructure. They either do so publicly, and explicitly, or privately–and then we're subject either to their whims, or an unknowable, unpredictable black box. One cannot disappear the room by covering one's eyes.[1] 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10970937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10970937
- cal5k 7y ago
  Godwin's Law is still alive and well, it seems. While your choice of comparative examples is patently absurd, you're actually arguing for a principled approach to governance rather than an activist one. And on that we agree - I think decisions should be made based on principle rather than based on who yells the loudest. As for Facebook "mediating our cultural superstructure", this is a completely untestable and probably ideological claim.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    > As for Facebook "mediating our cultural superstructure", this is a completely untestable and probably ideological claim. To the contrary, there's been quite a lot of research indicating that Facebook has an outsize influence on culture to the point that it's substantially affected elections (and not just America's). Google "facebook influence research" and you'll see plenty of interesting results.
    - cal5k 7y ago
      I'd like to read the research. But it's almost certainly a) ex post facto, and b) based on a hypothesis that is infinitely more specific than "does Facebook mediate the cultural superstructure". "Cultural superstructure" is a term ripped right out of Marxist literature, so it's already so burdened with ideological implications as to be inappropriate for serious research.
  - rexpop 7y ago

by cal5k 7y ago

foolrush 7y ago

You realize that women’s right to vote, African American right to vote, LGBTQ marriage laws, minimum wage, and the rest of your progressive legislation was based on activism based policy?

PhasmaFelis 7y ago
I think they're saying that it's bad for business, regardless of whether it brings real-world improvements. Not that that's any better. Kind of worse, actually.
dijit 7y ago
It's nice to think of policies I agree with when considering activism, but lets take a look at some I don't. Banning pork[0] for all meals being one of them, or maybe something like being forced to wear a burqa[1]? I mean, if there was a pro-trump activism rally in your workplace and seemingly the majority of workers were pro-trump, would you be silent? I would. (FWIW I'm playing devils advocate, suggesting that not all activism promotes social justice or advancement of society) [0]: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3936/denmark-bans-meatballs https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3936/denmark-bans-meatbal... [1]: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10323303/I-was-forced-to-wear-the-veil-and-I-wish-no-other-woman-had-to-suffer-it.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10323303/I-was-for...
- foolrush 7y ago
  I wasn’t suggesting that all activism promotes progressive societal values. That is an ethical and epistemological question. I was suggesting that a good number of things that happen are a byproduct of activism. All that said, it cracks me up that HN does a vote down on such basic sociological things. What a culture.
cal5k 7y ago
No, those were issues of principle. Activism can promote awareness, but it cannot be your moral compass.

rchaud 7y ago

Any examples to show that this is true?

bArray 7y ago

It's current year, don't you know? Forcing company actions/decisions by will of a handful of vocal people is how things are seemingly done now. But in general, this policy _could_ be good. I think politicians should be responsible for the claims they make and making clearly false statements should at the least be a fine-able offense. Other examples of crappy advertising are "X cures Y" without evidence to prove so, overtly sexual advertising, etc. Internet-based advertising does need to step its game up, perhaps threatening "regulate yourselves, or we'll regulate you" could work as it does in the UK (at least for big tech). I guess that it mostly works in the UK because many of these media companies have a license/legal consequence on the line also.

rexpop 7y ago

Each of us must live with our own conscience. If one Dehomag worker had engaged in "activism" to stop their collusion in the Holocaust, she'd have disgruntled 5,000 "silent" Nazis. The fact is, Facebook's algorithms mediate our cultural superstructure. They either do so publicly, and explicitly, or privately–and then we're subject either to their whims, or an unknowable, unpredictable black box. One cannot disappear the room by covering one's eyes.[1] 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10970937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10970937

cal5k 7y ago
Godwin's Law is still alive and well, it seems. While your choice of comparative examples is patently absurd, you're actually arguing for a principled approach to governance rather than an activist one. And on that we agree - I think decisions should be made based on principle rather than based on who yells the loudest. As for Facebook "mediating our cultural superstructure", this is a completely untestable and probably ideological claim.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  > As for Facebook "mediating our cultural superstructure", this is a completely untestable and probably ideological claim. To the contrary, there's been quite a lot of research indicating that Facebook has an outsize influence on culture to the point that it's substantially affected elections (and not just America's). Google "facebook influence research" and you'll see plenty of interesting results.
  - cal5k 7y ago
    I'd like to read the research. But it's almost certainly a) ex post facto, and b) based on a hypothesis that is infinitely more specific than "does Facebook mediate the cultural superstructure". "Cultural superstructure" is a term ripped right out of Marxist literature, so it's already so burdened with ideological implications as to be inappropriate for serious research.
- rexpop 7y ago