7 ms·

Fire shuts down cell towers in CA

55 points by colinmegill 7y ago

sliken 7y ago
And just months ago California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection decided: "However, with constantly changing technological advances, there is no longer the same benefit to State as previously provided. Therefore, the Department no longer financially supports HAM operators [sic] radios or tenancy. If you desire to enter into a formal agreement to operate and maintain said equipment, you must complete and submit attached collocation application along with fee as outlined on page one of application. There is cost associated with getting an agreement in place.” So basically pay up or move out. How exactly is the word supposed to get out in dangerous dry windy conditions if the power is out, the cells are out, and the hams move out?
- King-Aaron 7y ago
  > How exactly is the word supposed to get out in dangerous dry windy conditions if the power is out, the cells are out, and the hams move out? Smoke signals
  - netsharc 7y ago
    "I see smoke in the east". "What does it mean?" "There's a fire there." "Oh, you can read smoke signals?" "No."
- kwhitefoot 7y ago
  > How exactly is the word supposed to get out in dangerous dry windy conditions if the power is out, the cells are out, and the hams move out? There have been attempts to create apps that allow a combination of store and forward messaging and ad hoc network creation so that messages could be literally carried from where there is no mobile network coverage to places where there is or to be relayed through other devices. Now I put on my tinfoil hat: the problem is that in densely populated areas this would eat into the revenue that the network operator gets from SMS so no operators have promoted the idea and of course it would be easy to make it somewhat resistant to eavesdropping so no state will promote it either. Actually I don't know if those things are true but it seems like a plausible reason for the lack of peer to peer capabilities in modern smartphones. See https://www.computerworld.com/article/2510683/peer-to-peer--wireless-network-could-help-in-disasters.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2510683/peer-to-peer--...
  - sliken 7y ago
    Wifi direct is becoming popular and makes this kind of thing possible. I've also seen hardware products for similar like the gotenna. You could have a party of people across a relatively large area (say a ski resort, trail network, or neighborhood) and have decent async connectivity for SMS like use between them. Software products like Lifenet, Firechat, Bridgefy, and similar generally use wifi-direct or bluetooth to communicate and do support store and forward. On the amateur radio side js8call does allow forwarding through 3rd parties and store and forward. Granted the financial model for these kind of things is tricky, but they do seem to be getting more popular. But sure I don't expect any cell provider to help, and was pleasantly pleased when p2p/direct connections was added to android. I was pretty interested in gotenna and wanted to add a DHT and internet gateway so that messages would be delivered globally if anyone in your mesh had an internet connection. They rejected my idea 8-(.
- kawfey 7y ago
  Someone out there just really wants California to burn. To be fair, Cal fire and emergency agencies are well-equipped with two-way radios and repeaters. Ham radio operators don't actually do any direct activities with fire management, they might - a rare might - be in the right place at the right time to report a new fire, a structure or people under threat, but typically they don't. They do enhance the public's awareness of a fire's presence but I don't have knowledge of what else hams actually do for a fire.
  - kawfey 7y ago
    Edit: here's a first-hand experience from a ham affected by the fires: https://old.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/dpevai/experiences_during_the_4day_power_outage/ https://old.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/dpevai/experi...
thaumasiotes 7y ago
The title is actively wrong. The tweet linked, and the news article it links to, both finger PG&E's voluntary power shutoff as the reason the cell towers are down. They are not down because of fire, they're down because PG&E decided they shouldn't be up. > Of the 874 outages, 702 were blamed on loss of power to the cell tower site. > A few, about 60, were down due to wind or fire damage to the sites themselves.
- bsder 7y ago
  Aren't cell towers supposed to have battery backup for several days as part of the deal for having been granted spectrum? We had similar issues when power went out in San Diego and took down most of the radio stations which are considered part of the emergency network. Until somebody actually lands in jail for not maintaining lawfully mandated emergency readiness, this kind of crap will continue.
  - Maxious 7y ago
    There was calls for this after Hurricane Katrina but... > Federal regulators have rejected proposed changes by the Federal Communications Commission that would require all U.S. cell phone towers to have at least eight hours of backup power. https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-cell-towers-fcc-120108-2008dec01-story.html https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-cell-towers-fcc-12... (court challenge was CTIA Wireless Assn v. FCC, et al, No. 07-1475 (D.C. Cir. 2008)) The current regulations only cover fixed line or fixed-line-like wireless services https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/12.5 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/12.5
    - vaxman 7y ago
      Batteries have to be maintained and that would be a very counter productive use of a lot of money. A better solution is to require cell phone manufactures with over one million installed units in a given region to include an AM radio feature, even if it only enables when there is no cell service for a while. I know that some AM stations were taken out along with cell towers, but AM signals travel far and there is no doubt that many with an AM receiver in those areas could at least receive a broadcast from out of the area, especially if the local stations are not broadcasting interference. For extra credit, include auto Morse code detection (for even longer range broadcasts and also hearing impaired).
0b0001 7y ago
Firefighters (or others) could set up a "no-frills" base station on their truck. These systems include a power generator, servers, and a 2G GSM base station for ranges of about 10km. They don't even require any Internet connection, since their only purpose is to allow emergency calls and SMS. Any cell phone can set up an emergency call then - no need for a special SIM card. Vodafone has a humanitarian mission that sets up these systems all over the world. (They're using Huawei, though) https://www.gsma.com/mobilefordevelopment/resources/mobile-network-restoration-humanitarian-response/ https://www.gsma.com/mobilefordevelopment/resources/mobile-n...
- im3w1l 7y ago
  Do modern phones even support 2g anymore?
  - sgtnoodle 7y ago
    Why wouldn't they? As technology improves, it's a relatively small area of silicon in the chipsets.
    - 0b0001 7y ago
      Security could be one of the reasons -- 2G is the only technology remaining with no authentication of the network, and plenty of other issues. But I agree with you.
- tinus_hn 7y ago
  That’s if you just ignore licensing requirements for these very crowded frequencies.
  - 0b0001 7y ago
    I'm pretty sure firefighters could get such a license in the event of emergency -- or just operate without such a license. [Edit: or you ask some technician of your local operator to bring the system up :)]
synack 7y ago
Here's the report direct from the FCC. https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-360482A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-360482A1.pdf

55 points by colinmegill 7y ago

And just months ago California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection decided: "However, with constantly changing technological advances, there is no longer the same benefit to State as previously provided. Therefore, the Department no longer financially supports HAM operators [sic] radios or tenancy. If you desire to enter into a formal agreement to operate and maintain said equipment, you must complete and submit attached collocation application along with fee as outlined on page one of application. There is cost associated with getting an agreement in place.” So basically pay up or move out. How exactly is the word supposed to get out in dangerous dry windy conditions if the power is out, the cells are out, and the hams move out?

King-Aaron 7y ago
> How exactly is the word supposed to get out in dangerous dry windy conditions if the power is out, the cells are out, and the hams move out? Smoke signals
- netsharc 7y ago
  "I see smoke in the east". "What does it mean?" "There's a fire there." "Oh, you can read smoke signals?" "No."
kwhitefoot 7y ago
> How exactly is the word supposed to get out in dangerous dry windy conditions if the power is out, the cells are out, and the hams move out? There have been attempts to create apps that allow a combination of store and forward messaging and ad hoc network creation so that messages could be literally carried from where there is no mobile network coverage to places where there is or to be relayed through other devices. Now I put on my tinfoil hat: the problem is that in densely populated areas this would eat into the revenue that the network operator gets from SMS so no operators have promoted the idea and of course it would be easy to make it somewhat resistant to eavesdropping so no state will promote it either. Actually I don't know if those things are true but it seems like a plausible reason for the lack of peer to peer capabilities in modern smartphones. See https://www.computerworld.com/article/2510683/peer-to-peer--wireless-network-could-help-in-disasters.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2510683/peer-to-peer--...
- sliken 7y ago
  Wifi direct is becoming popular and makes this kind of thing possible. I've also seen hardware products for similar like the gotenna. You could have a party of people across a relatively large area (say a ski resort, trail network, or neighborhood) and have decent async connectivity for SMS like use between them. Software products like Lifenet, Firechat, Bridgefy, and similar generally use wifi-direct or bluetooth to communicate and do support store and forward. On the amateur radio side js8call does allow forwarding through 3rd parties and store and forward. Granted the financial model for these kind of things is tricky, but they do seem to be getting more popular. But sure I don't expect any cell provider to help, and was pleasantly pleased when p2p/direct connections was added to android. I was pretty interested in gotenna and wanted to add a DHT and internet gateway so that messages would be delivered globally if anyone in your mesh had an internet connection. They rejected my idea 8-(.
kawfey 7y ago
Someone out there just really wants California to burn. To be fair, Cal fire and emergency agencies are well-equipped with two-way radios and repeaters. Ham radio operators don't actually do any direct activities with fire management, they might - a rare might - be in the right place at the right time to report a new fire, a structure or people under threat, but typically they don't. They do enhance the public's awareness of a fire's presence but I don't have knowledge of what else hams actually do for a fire.
- kawfey 7y ago
  Edit: here's a first-hand experience from a ham affected by the fires: https://old.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/dpevai/experiences_during_the_4day_power_outage/ https://old.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/dpevai/experi...

thaumasiotes 7y ago

The title is actively wrong. The tweet linked, and the news article it links to, both finger PG&E's voluntary power shutoff as the reason the cell towers are down. They are not down because of fire, they're down because PG&E decided they shouldn't be up. > Of the 874 outages, 702 were blamed on loss of power to the cell tower site. > A few, about 60, were down due to wind or fire damage to the sites themselves.

bsder 7y ago
Aren't cell towers supposed to have battery backup for several days as part of the deal for having been granted spectrum? We had similar issues when power went out in San Diego and took down most of the radio stations which are considered part of the emergency network. Until somebody actually lands in jail for not maintaining lawfully mandated emergency readiness, this kind of crap will continue.
- Maxious 7y ago
  There was calls for this after Hurricane Katrina but... > Federal regulators have rejected proposed changes by the Federal Communications Commission that would require all U.S. cell phone towers to have at least eight hours of backup power. https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-cell-towers-fcc-120108-2008dec01-story.html https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-cell-towers-fcc-12... (court challenge was CTIA Wireless Assn v. FCC, et al, No. 07-1475 (D.C. Cir. 2008)) The current regulations only cover fixed line or fixed-line-like wireless services https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/12.5 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/12.5
  - vaxman 7y ago
    Batteries have to be maintained and that would be a very counter productive use of a lot of money. A better solution is to require cell phone manufactures with over one million installed units in a given region to include an AM radio feature, even if it only enables when there is no cell service for a while. I know that some AM stations were taken out along with cell towers, but AM signals travel far and there is no doubt that many with an AM receiver in those areas could at least receive a broadcast from out of the area, especially if the local stations are not broadcasting interference. For extra credit, include auto Morse code detection (for even longer range broadcasts and also hearing impaired).

0b0001 7y ago

Firefighters (or others) could set up a "no-frills" base station on their truck. These systems include a power generator, servers, and a 2G GSM base station for ranges of about 10km. They don't even require any Internet connection, since their only purpose is to allow emergency calls and SMS. Any cell phone can set up an emergency call then - no need for a special SIM card. Vodafone has a humanitarian mission that sets up these systems all over the world. (They're using Huawei, though) https://www.gsma.com/mobilefordevelopment/resources/mobile-network-restoration-humanitarian-response/ https://www.gsma.com/mobilefordevelopment/resources/mobile-n...

im3w1l 7y ago
Do modern phones even support 2g anymore?
- sgtnoodle 7y ago
  Why wouldn't they? As technology improves, it's a relatively small area of silicon in the chipsets.
  - 0b0001 7y ago
    Security could be one of the reasons -- 2G is the only technology remaining with no authentication of the network, and plenty of other issues. But I agree with you.
tinus_hn 7y ago
That’s if you just ignore licensing requirements for these very crowded frequencies.
- 0b0001 7y ago
  I'm pretty sure firefighters could get such a license in the event of emergency -- or just operate without such a license. [Edit: or you ask some technician of your local operator to bring the system up :)]

synack 7y ago

Here's the report direct from the FCC. https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-360482A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-360482A1.pdf