9 ms·

Green Bank, WV, is home to a telescope that needs electromagnetic silence

52 points by spking 7y ago

zellyn 7y ago
Heh. Everything I know about the Green Bank Telescope, I know from The Adventure Zone podcast, which set their second major story — Amnesty — there. If you've never tried it, I highly recommend it :-)
jolesf 7y ago
There is also a NSA center in that area
- hkchad 7y ago
  Sugar Grove
Sil_E_Goose 7y ago
I actually interviewed for a position as a software developer at the GBO towards the end of my senior year in college. When describing the area to me, I distinctly recall the lead developer saying, "There is urban, suburban, rural, middle-of-nowhere and Antarctica. We are in between middle-of-nowhere and Antarctica". He also said the nearest grocery store was an hour away by car. Obviously the location was not for me, but they were doing some really exciting things.
- pmiller2 7y ago
  Seems more like exactly “middle-of-nowhere” to me. It’s not like you can only get in or out for half the year, and even then, only by plane.
yummybear 7y ago
Would mandating 5Ghz help?
- SiempreViernes 7y ago
  No, that just means restricting people to only using one colour for despoiling the canvas of nature.
  - JosephRedfern 7y ago
    Does it, though? The range of 5GHz networks is (fairly) significantly lower than 2.4GHz higher frequencies are more easily attenuated by buildings (and even air), so I'd perhaps wrongly expect it have less of an impact than 2.4GHz.
    - SiempreViernes 7y ago
      Maybe you can use it without interfering from slightly closer, but they have very sensitive receivers and loss of usable connection doesn't mean complete loss of signal. It might actually be worse that the signal degrades quickly because that makes it harder to identify as artificial.
- gene-h 7y ago
  Ideally, you'd mandate wireless usage at 60 GHz. 60 GHz is strongly attenuated by oxygen in the air[0]. In fact some military satellites use it for secure communication between satellites because it's strongly attenuated by the atmosphere[0]. And while you would think that a band that is the most attenuated by oxygen in the air would be the absolute worst for wireless communication, there's oddly a wifi standard that uses it[2] for communication at speeds up to 7 Gbit/s. While the speed is high the range is only up to 10 meters and it doesn't penetrate walls. [0]https://cdn.everythingrf.com/live/atomspheric-absorption_636385398576768972.PNG https://cdn.everythingrf.com/live/atomspheric-absorption_636... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_band#Uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_band#Uses [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiGig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiGig
INTPenis 7y ago
What about the earths magnetic field? Is the telescope calibrated towards it already or is it too weak to influence humans on earth and only capable of influencing solar winds?
- SiempreViernes 7y ago
  Depends on what you mean with influence, humanity has used magnetic compasses for a fairly long time. The magnetic field itself doesn't vary fast enough to emit radiation at the frequencies the GBT observes at.
Merrill 7y ago
United States National Radio Quiet Zone which also covers Sugar Grove. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Radio_Quiet_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Radio_Q...
pard68 7y ago
There is a section of Interstate 81 where you can't tune into any radio stations. I believe that this installation is the reason for this "dead zone".
neurobashing 7y ago
I go camping in that area quite frequently. It’s almost certainly in my head but there’s something calming about it. It might just be fewer cars and planes overhead than, say, Canaan Valley to the north.
sirbranedamuj 7y ago
This is a really cool place to visit if you're ever passing by. We went about 1.5 hours out of our way to check it out one time and it did not disappoint.
CaliforniaKarl 7y ago
Obligatory Tom Scott video: https://youtu.be/eQEGPATQe5s https://youtu.be/eQEGPATQe5s
rootbear 7y ago
A friend and I had been talking about visiting NRAO/Green Bank for some years and in 2006 we finally decided on a weekend. When I went to look up some information on visiting, I discovered we had unknowingly picked their 50th anniversary weekend! It was a great trip and we got to see more than the usual tour. The drive out was beautiful (it was in the Autumn). The Bird Telescope is impressive.
briandear 7y ago
Why does the title not match the actual title?
ajford 7y ago
Green Bank and the local town is a really cool place. It's a shame to see that some people are giving up on the attitude that's helped protect the telescope's ability to perform amazing science. My undergrad work used some data from that telescope, and I've spent a few different weeks out on site at various times. The article mentions the use of diesel vehicles, but neglects to mention that the presence of control electronics is making it harder and harder for the facility to use modern diesel vehicles as the radios, ECUs, and in many newer vehicles even the ignition system radiates vast (relatively speaking) amounts of unwanted radio. When I was there a decade ago, they were lamenting the loss of a couple late-60's or 70's model diesel trucks (see this short article from autoblog with images https://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/24/national-radio-astronomy-observatory-old-diesel-trucks-read-this-report/ https://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/24/national-radio-astronomy...) that were just beyond further repair at that point. I was friends with some summer interns out at GBT during late 2000s, and they mentioned how the student housing at the time didn't have computers, as it was in direct line-of-site of the telescope and the building wasn't shielded well enough. So they had a notepad on the fridge which was for "consulting the oracle" the next day. If the group had a question that required research/google, it was jotted down and they took turns looking it up the next day and emailing the group with the collected answers. On another tangent, I've heard from some people out that way they're starting to run into some problems with people claiming to be "Electro-sensitive" seeking refuge in the town, then causing hell with the local population and in some cases even trying to blame the observatory for "transmitting". (note this claim is all hear-say from friends who worked there or know people who worked there)
- magduf 7y ago
  Old diesel vehicles are horrific polluters. It sounds like this telescope needs to be relocated to the Moon. There just aren't many places on this planet left where you can avoid EMI/RFI, and where anyone would want to live.
  - drharby 7y ago
    This unscientific and non data backed opinion simply isn't contributing towards meaningful dialogue.
kawfey 7y ago
I used to work at the Very Large Array, which didn't have the same radio quiet zone that GBT did, so we were in charge of chasing visitors' cell phones down with a handheld spectrum analyzer and a small horn antenna. People became very uncomfortable when they're were being approached by a person holding a scientific instrument. https://n0ssc.blogspot.com/2013/05/what-im-up-to-at-vla.html https://n0ssc.blogspot.com/2013/05/what-im-up-to-at-vla.html
- Doxin 7y ago
  To be fair, you could hardly build a scientific device that looks more like a ray-gun than the thing in that picture!
sizzzzlerz 7y ago
The Great Courses series has course on radio astronomy hosted by Dr. Felix Goodman, an astronomer at Green Bank. One episode provides a close look at the telescopes located at GB including the big 400-foot dish. It's an interesting watch if you're interested in science and astronomy and want to know more about radio astronomy. The technology behind the telescopes is truly fascinating.
peter_d_sherman 7y ago
Observation: The Moon (in the near future) and Mars (in the far future) -- would be great places to install radiotelescopes that require electromagnetic silence...

52 points by spking 7y ago

Heh. Everything I know about the Green Bank Telescope, I know from The Adventure Zone podcast, which set their second major story — Amnesty — there. If you've never tried it, I highly recommend it :-)

jolesf 7y ago

There is also a NSA center in that area

hkchad 7y ago
Sugar Grove

Sil_E_Goose 7y ago

I actually interviewed for a position as a software developer at the GBO towards the end of my senior year in college. When describing the area to me, I distinctly recall the lead developer saying, "There is urban, suburban, rural, middle-of-nowhere and Antarctica. We are in between middle-of-nowhere and Antarctica". He also said the nearest grocery store was an hour away by car. Obviously the location was not for me, but they were doing some really exciting things.

pmiller2 7y ago
Seems more like exactly “middle-of-nowhere” to me. It’s not like you can only get in or out for half the year, and even then, only by plane.

yummybear 7y ago

Would mandating 5Ghz help?

SiempreViernes 7y ago
No, that just means restricting people to only using one colour for despoiling the canvas of nature.
- JosephRedfern 7y ago
  Does it, though? The range of 5GHz networks is (fairly) significantly lower than 2.4GHz higher frequencies are more easily attenuated by buildings (and even air), so I'd perhaps wrongly expect it have less of an impact than 2.4GHz.
  - SiempreViernes 7y ago
    Maybe you can use it without interfering from slightly closer, but they have very sensitive receivers and loss of usable connection doesn't mean complete loss of signal. It might actually be worse that the signal degrades quickly because that makes it harder to identify as artificial.
gene-h 7y ago
Ideally, you'd mandate wireless usage at 60 GHz. 60 GHz is strongly attenuated by oxygen in the air[0]. In fact some military satellites use it for secure communication between satellites because it's strongly attenuated by the atmosphere[0]. And while you would think that a band that is the most attenuated by oxygen in the air would be the absolute worst for wireless communication, there's oddly a wifi standard that uses it[2] for communication at speeds up to 7 Gbit/s. While the speed is high the range is only up to 10 meters and it doesn't penetrate walls. [0]https://cdn.everythingrf.com/live/atomspheric-absorption_636385398576768972.PNG https://cdn.everythingrf.com/live/atomspheric-absorption_636... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_band#Uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_band#Uses [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiGig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiGig

INTPenis 7y ago

What about the earths magnetic field? Is the telescope calibrated towards it already or is it too weak to influence humans on earth and only capable of influencing solar winds?

SiempreViernes 7y ago
Depends on what you mean with influence, humanity has used magnetic compasses for a fairly long time. The magnetic field itself doesn't vary fast enough to emit radiation at the frequencies the GBT observes at.

Merrill 7y ago

United States National Radio Quiet Zone which also covers Sugar Grove. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Radio_Quiet_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Radio_Q...

pard68 7y ago

There is a section of Interstate 81 where you can't tune into any radio stations. I believe that this installation is the reason for this "dead zone".

neurobashing 7y ago

I go camping in that area quite frequently. It’s almost certainly in my head but there’s something calming about it. It might just be fewer cars and planes overhead than, say, Canaan Valley to the north.

sirbranedamuj 7y ago

This is a really cool place to visit if you're ever passing by. We went about 1.5 hours out of our way to check it out one time and it did not disappoint.

CaliforniaKarl 7y ago

Obligatory Tom Scott video: https://youtu.be/eQEGPATQe5s https://youtu.be/eQEGPATQe5s

rootbear 7y ago

A friend and I had been talking about visiting NRAO/Green Bank for some years and in 2006 we finally decided on a weekend. When I went to look up some information on visiting, I discovered we had unknowingly picked their 50th anniversary weekend! It was a great trip and we got to see more than the usual tour. The drive out was beautiful (it was in the Autumn). The Bird Telescope is impressive.

briandear 7y ago

Why does the title not match the actual title?

ajford 7y ago

Green Bank and the local town is a really cool place. It's a shame to see that some people are giving up on the attitude that's helped protect the telescope's ability to perform amazing science. My undergrad work used some data from that telescope, and I've spent a few different weeks out on site at various times. The article mentions the use of diesel vehicles, but neglects to mention that the presence of control electronics is making it harder and harder for the facility to use modern diesel vehicles as the radios, ECUs, and in many newer vehicles even the ignition system radiates vast (relatively speaking) amounts of unwanted radio. When I was there a decade ago, they were lamenting the loss of a couple late-60's or 70's model diesel trucks (see this short article from autoblog with images https://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/24/national-radio-astronomy-observatory-old-diesel-trucks-read-this-report/ https://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/24/national-radio-astronomy...) that were just beyond further repair at that point. I was friends with some summer interns out at GBT during late 2000s, and they mentioned how the student housing at the time didn't have computers, as it was in direct line-of-site of the telescope and the building wasn't shielded well enough. So they had a notepad on the fridge which was for "consulting the oracle" the next day. If the group had a question that required research/google, it was jotted down and they took turns looking it up the next day and emailing the group with the collected answers. On another tangent, I've heard from some people out that way they're starting to run into some problems with people claiming to be "Electro-sensitive" seeking refuge in the town, then causing hell with the local population and in some cases even trying to blame the observatory for "transmitting". (note this claim is all hear-say from friends who worked there or know people who worked there)

magduf 7y ago
Old diesel vehicles are horrific polluters. It sounds like this telescope needs to be relocated to the Moon. There just aren't many places on this planet left where you can avoid EMI/RFI, and where anyone would want to live.
- drharby 7y ago
  This unscientific and non data backed opinion simply isn't contributing towards meaningful dialogue.

kawfey 7y ago

I used to work at the Very Large Array, which didn't have the same radio quiet zone that GBT did, so we were in charge of chasing visitors' cell phones down with a handheld spectrum analyzer and a small horn antenna. People became very uncomfortable when they're were being approached by a person holding a scientific instrument. https://n0ssc.blogspot.com/2013/05/what-im-up-to-at-vla.html https://n0ssc.blogspot.com/2013/05/what-im-up-to-at-vla.html

Doxin 7y ago
To be fair, you could hardly build a scientific device that looks more like a ray-gun than the thing in that picture!

sizzzzlerz 7y ago

The Great Courses series has course on radio astronomy hosted by Dr. Felix Goodman, an astronomer at Green Bank. One episode provides a close look at the telescopes located at GB including the big 400-foot dish. It's an interesting watch if you're interested in science and astronomy and want to know more about radio astronomy. The technology behind the telescopes is truly fascinating.

peter_d_sherman 7y ago

Observation: The Moon (in the near future) and Mars (in the far future) -- would be great places to install radiotelescopes that require electromagnetic silence...