5 ms·

I don't get it (maybe because English is not my native language). I've always thought that "I consider X" means that someone does express an opinion, and not a

by dhs 16y ago

I don't get it (maybe because English is not my native language). I've always thought that "I consider X" means that someone does express an opinion, and not a fact. Am I missing something?

darren_ 16y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful It's a very common way of titling any essay about anything related to computers that you don't like, as a way of signaling to the audience that you have in fact heard of a 'computer'.
- hugh3 16y ago
  Or to put it another way, "considered harmful" is a dumb internet meme which just happens to be almost as old as the internet.
necubi 16y ago
The use of the passive voice ("is considered") implies that the position has more support than just the author and is a general belief. "I consider" would be seen as expressing the author's personal opinion.
- dhs 16y ago
  Ah, thanks (@darren et al., too). There's always another subtlety to learn...
- JumboWhales 16y ago
  The author uses a tumblr. Do you expect any better of him?
samdk 16y ago
There's a very big distinction between saying "I consider X harmful" and "X [is] considered harmful". In the former, it's very clear that you're expressing your own opinion. In the latter, it's implied that your opinion is "the" opinion, and that X is considered harmful by people in general, not just by you. (At least, that's how I've always read it. I suppose one could argue that "X considered harmful" actually should be read "X [is] considered harmful [by me]" or maybe "X [should be] considered harmful", but I don't think either of those interpretations are obvious.)
- techiferous 16y ago
  ...and this is why E-Prime exists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_prime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_prime
  - j_baker 16y ago
    Ahem... "E-Prime exists for this purpose."
bonzoesc 16y ago
The usual phrasing is "X considered harmful," which is a passive sentence and doesn't actually say who considers it harmful. Originally it was used from a position of authority ; E. W. Dijkstra made about forty years of very important contributions to computer science, most of them more significant than: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rubinson/copyright_violations/Go_To_Considered_Harmful.html http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rubinson/copyright_violations/Go_T... . Today it's complaining that an academic organization charges for access to papers ( http://se9book.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/acm-considered-harmful/ http://se9book.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/acm-considered-harmf... ) or warning about a base feature in a family of languages ( http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/2008/09/22/arrays-considered-somewhat-harmful.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/2008/09/22/array... ). One of these is an opinion from an unsatisfied customer ("I don't like the way ACM charges for papers and requires copyright assignment"), and the other is a pretty important point about a language from one of its designers ("Arrays don't belong in public APIs in .NET languages").
- j_baker 16y ago
  No, it's pretty much always been about petty complaints. As it turns out, Wirth changed the title precisely because it was inflammatory. The first documented use of it is a complaint about rent control: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004675.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004675.h...
deleted 16y ago
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by dhs 16y ago

I don't get it (maybe because English is not my native language). I've always thought that "I consider X" means that someone does express an opinion, and not a fact. Am I missing something?

darren_ 16y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful It's a very common way of titling any essay about anything related to computers that you don't like, as a way of signaling to the audience that you have in fact heard of a 'computer'.

hugh3 16y ago
Or to put it another way, "considered harmful" is a dumb internet meme which just happens to be almost as old as the internet.

necubi 16y ago

The use of the passive voice ("is considered") implies that the position has more support than just the author and is a general belief. "I consider" would be seen as expressing the author's personal opinion.

dhs 16y ago
Ah, thanks (@darren et al., too). There's always another subtlety to learn...
JumboWhales 16y ago
The author uses a tumblr. Do you expect any better of him?

samdk 16y ago

There's a very big distinction between saying "I consider X harmful" and "X [is] considered harmful". In the former, it's very clear that you're expressing your own opinion. In the latter, it's implied that your opinion is "the" opinion, and that X is considered harmful by people in general, not just by you. (At least, that's how I've always read it. I suppose one could argue that "X considered harmful" actually should be read "X [is] considered harmful [by me]" or maybe "X [should be] considered harmful", but I don't think either of those interpretations are obvious.)

techiferous 16y ago
...and this is why E-Prime exists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_prime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_prime
- j_baker 16y ago
  Ahem... "E-Prime exists for this purpose."

bonzoesc 16y ago

The usual phrasing is "X considered harmful," which is a passive sentence and doesn't actually say who considers it harmful. Originally it was used from a position of authority ; E. W. Dijkstra made about forty years of very important contributions to computer science, most of them more significant than: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rubinson/copyright_violations/Go_To_Considered_Harmful.html http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rubinson/copyright_violations/Go_T... . Today it's complaining that an academic organization charges for access to papers ( http://se9book.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/acm-considered-harmful/ http://se9book.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/acm-considered-harmf... ) or warning about a base feature in a family of languages ( http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/2008/09/22/arrays-considered-somewhat-harmful.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/2008/09/22/array... ). One of these is an opinion from an unsatisfied customer ("I don't like the way ACM charges for papers and requires copyright assignment"), and the other is a pretty important point about a language from one of its designers ("Arrays don't belong in public APIs in .NET languages").

j_baker 16y ago
No, it's pretty much always been about petty complaints. As it turns out, Wirth changed the title precisely because it was inflammatory. The first documented use of it is a complaint about rent control: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004675.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004675.h...

deleted 16y ago

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