4 ms·

not to go all "blame the victim" here, but one thing I noticed culturally in NYC is that traffic lights are a suggestion to pedestrians. If there isn't a car di

not to go all "blame the victim" here, but one thing I noticed culturally in NYC is that traffic lights are a suggestion to pedestrians. If there isn't a car directly in front of them, they'll cross the street. Compare to LA, where people tend to wait for the signal to cross pretty consistently. That said, LA still has horrible pedestrian death statistics so who knows how much that matters.

runarberg 7y ago
If people don’t follow traffic signals it is the fault of the signals. That is, if everybody makes the same mistake, it is no individuals fault, but a fault in the system. To give a more concrete example. Say a traffic light has a pedestrian light attached. It will only allow pedestrian crossings when it does not stop the flow of vehicular traffic (say every 3-5 min, and only for 20 seconds at a time). But it does so regardless of actual traffic (no cars are passing the intersection when many pedestrians arrive), you can’t really blame the pedestrians of ruling this system as stupid and opting not to follow it.
- fennecfoxen 7y ago
  > That is, if everybody makes the same mistake Who says it's a mistake? It has nothing to do with the signals and everything to do with the pedestrians. If you actually want people to respect the signals, place traffic police on every corner in Manhattan and issue jaywalking tickets to absolutely everyone, for months on end, and you'll see it. (You'll also see a backlash.) Other than that, it's not happening.
  - selectodude 7y ago
    Giuliani already tried that. People didn't respect the signals. https://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/13/nyregion/with-higher-fines-giuliani-hopes-to-hobble-jaywalkers.html https://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/13/nyregion/with-higher-fine...
    - fennecfoxen 7y ago
      Wasn't enough. You need to ticket someone every single time, or close to it. (The amount of the ticket hardly matters, it's the consistency.) (You will notice this idea is unworkable due to excessive manpower requirements. It is undesirable for other reasons as well.)
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > you can’t really blame the pedestrians of ruling this system as stupid and opting not to follow it. Sure I can, they have a shit culture with little regard for traffic signals. My city has the same problem. I'm the odd man out for waiting for a signal, and am mocked for it at times. Nothing wrong with the signals or timing as a pedestrian (as a cyclist that's another story), but people feel they are more important. That they're 15 - 90 seconds is worth more. Similarly, had a man recklessly pass me in his vehicle while I was biking to work yesterday. He went fully into the oncoming well above the posted speed limit, and cut me off as I was turning from the forward-moving lane into the left-hand turning lane. All to get around me to a red light. Some people feel their 15 seconds are more valuable than others safety. In the case of pedestrian jaywalking, that their safety isn't worth the inconvenience of using the nearest crosswalk.
- k_ 7y ago
  No. I don't care if a security system is not highly efficient in letting everyone moving around. It's not the point anyway. That's the kind of thinking that makes our roads so deadly. If a rule in particular seems really silly to you, file a complaint / suggest a change so that it takes more parameters into account but until it is changed, stick to it. Loose some seconds or even minutes, I don't really care. These security rules should be followed by everyone, and people with your line of thinking shouldn't be allowed to own a car.
  - stefan_ 7y ago
    No, what makes our roads deadly is cars. Things with engines in them that can power a street of suburban homes. Never pedestrians.
    - k_ 7y ago
      My comment applies to cars too (if not mainly to cars). I'm not blaming pedestrians (I realize it wasn't obvious at all), I'm blaming all that ignore rules on the road and make these safety rules even less efficient because of the unpredictability. (edit: though of course cars & other vehicules make it far more dangerous) I'm not a fan of cars already, but people driving cars while following safety rules only when it suits them is what make them a lot more deadly imo.
- neves 7y ago
  Crosswalks are the sign. Pedestrians have preference and almost all the world cars must stop when there is a pedestrian in a crosswalk. There are places where people doesn't even take the eyes from their phone while stepping in a crosswalk.
i_am_proteus 7y ago
I commuted on foot in NYC for several years. The culture is generally for pedestrians to cross at intersections with no regard to the signal, but generally not to do so if it means oncoming traffic will have to brake. Right turns at red lights are illegal in NYC, and most of the streets in the city are one-way, so for a pedestrian to cross the street against a signal with no oncoming traffic is reasonably safe.
crazygringo 7y ago
Well NYC is a city for pedestrians primarily, and for drivers only secondarily. Vastly more people walk through a midtown Manhattan intersection than drive. So yes -- unless a car is immediately coming, you and everyone else will cross the street regardless of the signal. Cars are the minority in what is primarily a pedestrian zone, numerically. LA is generally the opposite -- it's a city for drivers, not for pedestrians. So the norms are different.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  I think is the issue is where this leaves cyclists, who are also supposed to obey signals and traffic direction restrictions.
mFixman 7y ago
This is literally blaming the victim. Pedestrians aren't carrying a multi-tonne vehicle that can kill people. Traffic lights are for drivers, and it's drivers who should pay attention. The first step to fixing traffic deaths is fixing the laws that make causing a traffic accident more affordable than paying attention on the road. Right now you can drive while using a cellphone and run over as many people as you want if your excuse is "they came out of nowhere".
- esyir 7y ago
  If you walk when you have been assigned to walk, your risk of an accident goes down. Please do not wave your faux high ground around like an argument.
  - mFixman 7y ago
    If you drive like you are assigned to drive, your risk of running over people goes down to 100%. The responsibility of not killing people is on the drivers.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
The cars frequently treat them as suggestions too. And they seem to treat bike lines in a similar manner.
RandallBrown 7y ago
The system works amazingly well. In a couple years of walking through midtown, I only saw one person get hit by a car and they walked out from behind a food truck into traffic, nowhere near a crosswalk. The car couldn't have done anything about it. When I first moved there I was annoyed by everyone ignoring the signals. Then I came to appreciate it as an efficient way of getting around the city. Pedestrians (and bikes and cars) all used the signals as general guidelines, but would go when it was safe, because otherwise you're never going to get anywhere. I'm not saying that everyone everywhere should ignore traffic signals, but it seems to work well in New York City.
chaosbutters314 7y ago
This. NYers do not respect crosswalks, jaywalking or rules of the road. It is chaos. People walk wherever and drive wherever. It is chaos. I was shocked to see the contrast between NYC and Montreal in terms of respecting the rules of road
- lonelappde 7y ago
  That's because the rules are unjust. The cars shouldn't be there, for the most part, and the ones that are there should be driving slowly and carefully and paying for the privilege of commandeering space.
  - cylinder 7y ago
    It makes no sense for 30 pedestrians to stand at a crosswalk waiting so 7 people can drive their cars through an intersection.

runarberg 7y ago

If people don’t follow traffic signals it is the fault of the signals. That is, if everybody makes the same mistake, it is no individuals fault, but a fault in the system. To give a more concrete example. Say a traffic light has a pedestrian light attached. It will only allow pedestrian crossings when it does not stop the flow of vehicular traffic (say every 3-5 min, and only for 20 seconds at a time). But it does so regardless of actual traffic (no cars are passing the intersection when many pedestrians arrive), you can’t really blame the pedestrians of ruling this system as stupid and opting not to follow it.

fennecfoxen 7y ago
> That is, if everybody makes the same mistake Who says it's a mistake? It has nothing to do with the signals and everything to do with the pedestrians. If you actually want people to respect the signals, place traffic police on every corner in Manhattan and issue jaywalking tickets to absolutely everyone, for months on end, and you'll see it. (You'll also see a backlash.) Other than that, it's not happening.
- selectodude 7y ago
  Giuliani already tried that. People didn't respect the signals. https://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/13/nyregion/with-higher-fines-giuliani-hopes-to-hobble-jaywalkers.html https://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/13/nyregion/with-higher-fine...
  - fennecfoxen 7y ago
    Wasn't enough. You need to ticket someone every single time, or close to it. (The amount of the ticket hardly matters, it's the consistency.) (You will notice this idea is unworkable due to excessive manpower requirements. It is undesirable for other reasons as well.)
mieseratte 7y ago
> you can’t really blame the pedestrians of ruling this system as stupid and opting not to follow it. Sure I can, they have a shit culture with little regard for traffic signals. My city has the same problem. I'm the odd man out for waiting for a signal, and am mocked for it at times. Nothing wrong with the signals or timing as a pedestrian (as a cyclist that's another story), but people feel they are more important. That they're 15 - 90 seconds is worth more. Similarly, had a man recklessly pass me in his vehicle while I was biking to work yesterday. He went fully into the oncoming well above the posted speed limit, and cut me off as I was turning from the forward-moving lane into the left-hand turning lane. All to get around me to a red light. Some people feel their 15 seconds are more valuable than others safety. In the case of pedestrian jaywalking, that their safety isn't worth the inconvenience of using the nearest crosswalk.
k_ 7y ago
No. I don't care if a security system is not highly efficient in letting everyone moving around. It's not the point anyway. That's the kind of thinking that makes our roads so deadly. If a rule in particular seems really silly to you, file a complaint / suggest a change so that it takes more parameters into account but until it is changed, stick to it. Loose some seconds or even minutes, I don't really care. These security rules should be followed by everyone, and people with your line of thinking shouldn't be allowed to own a car.
- stefan_ 7y ago
  No, what makes our roads deadly is cars. Things with engines in them that can power a street of suburban homes. Never pedestrians.
  - k_ 7y ago
    My comment applies to cars too (if not mainly to cars). I'm not blaming pedestrians (I realize it wasn't obvious at all), I'm blaming all that ignore rules on the road and make these safety rules even less efficient because of the unpredictability. (edit: though of course cars & other vehicules make it far more dangerous) I'm not a fan of cars already, but people driving cars while following safety rules only when it suits them is what make them a lot more deadly imo.
neves 7y ago
Crosswalks are the sign. Pedestrians have preference and almost all the world cars must stop when there is a pedestrian in a crosswalk. There are places where people doesn't even take the eyes from their phone while stepping in a crosswalk.

i_am_proteus 7y ago

I commuted on foot in NYC for several years. The culture is generally for pedestrians to cross at intersections with no regard to the signal, but generally not to do so if it means oncoming traffic will have to brake. Right turns at red lights are illegal in NYC, and most of the streets in the city are one-way, so for a pedestrian to cross the street against a signal with no oncoming traffic is reasonably safe.

crazygringo 7y ago

Well NYC is a city for pedestrians primarily, and for drivers only secondarily. Vastly more people walk through a midtown Manhattan intersection than drive. So yes -- unless a car is immediately coming, you and everyone else will cross the street regardless of the signal. Cars are the minority in what is primarily a pedestrian zone, numerically. LA is generally the opposite -- it's a city for drivers, not for pedestrians. So the norms are different.

vonmoltke 7y ago
I think is the issue is where this leaves cyclists, who are also supposed to obey signals and traffic direction restrictions.

mFixman 7y ago

This is literally blaming the victim. Pedestrians aren't carrying a multi-tonne vehicle that can kill people. Traffic lights are for drivers, and it's drivers who should pay attention. The first step to fixing traffic deaths is fixing the laws that make causing a traffic accident more affordable than paying attention on the road. Right now you can drive while using a cellphone and run over as many people as you want if your excuse is "they came out of nowhere".

esyir 7y ago
If you walk when you have been assigned to walk, your risk of an accident goes down. Please do not wave your faux high ground around like an argument.
- mFixman 7y ago
  If you drive like you are assigned to drive, your risk of running over people goes down to 100%. The responsibility of not killing people is on the drivers.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

The cars frequently treat them as suggestions too. And they seem to treat bike lines in a similar manner.

RandallBrown 7y ago

The system works amazingly well. In a couple years of walking through midtown, I only saw one person get hit by a car and they walked out from behind a food truck into traffic, nowhere near a crosswalk. The car couldn't have done anything about it. When I first moved there I was annoyed by everyone ignoring the signals. Then I came to appreciate it as an efficient way of getting around the city. Pedestrians (and bikes and cars) all used the signals as general guidelines, but would go when it was safe, because otherwise you're never going to get anywhere. I'm not saying that everyone everywhere should ignore traffic signals, but it seems to work well in New York City.

chaosbutters314 7y ago

This. NYers do not respect crosswalks, jaywalking or rules of the road. It is chaos. People walk wherever and drive wherever. It is chaos. I was shocked to see the contrast between NYC and Montreal in terms of respecting the rules of road

lonelappde 7y ago
That's because the rules are unjust. The cars shouldn't be there, for the most part, and the ones that are there should be driving slowly and carefully and paying for the privilege of commandeering space.
- cylinder 7y ago
  It makes no sense for 30 pedestrians to stand at a crosswalk waiting so 7 people can drive their cars through an intersection.