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The reason why Amazon has thus far restricted Amazon Fresh to Seattle is because having vans in other cities would constitute a "business presence" which would

The reason why Amazon has thus far restricted Amazon Fresh to Seattle is because having vans in other cities would constitute a "business presence" which would then subject all of Amazon to sales tax in that state.

mlinsey 16y ago
Are you sure? As I understand it, Amazon Fresh LLC is a separate legal entity, just like Lab 126 and A9, both of which are based in California.
- buss 16y ago
  I'm not sure about that. A9 and Lab126 don't share office space with the rest of Amazon, but Fresh is right in my building.
brianbreslin 16y ago
I'd assume the reason they are only in Seattle is because the margins on grocery are slim and the logistics a nightmare. So they are dipping their toes into their home market first. Effectively eating their own dog food for lack of a better expression. Launching in tons of cities requires lots of distribution points.
earl 16y ago
I don't know -- A2Z is in SF just off Market street, the employees receive Amazon stock, get discounts on amazon.com, work exclusively (afaik) for amazon.com, and some lawyer has figured out how they aren't actually working for amazon and thus amazon doesn't pay ca taxes. Seems pretty much like outright theft to me. http://public.a2z.com/index.html http://public.a2z.com/index.html
- nika 16y ago
  Amazon legally organizing their business so that they can avoid being forced (under threat of violence) to pay money to a state (that has proven it cannot responsibly spend it anyway) is not theft. It is, actually, theft avoidance. Theft is when you use force, or the threat of force, to take from someone to whome the property rightfully belongs. Taxation is closer to theft than tax avoidance.
  - earl 16y ago
    Characterizing paying taxes -- the result of the democratic process, etc -- as theft under threat of violence makes you a fucking idiot.
    - nika 16y ago
      That wasn't a characterization, it was a statement of fact. That you need to characterize me as "a fucking idiot" reflects more on you than me. Please read this: http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
      - sorbus 16y ago
        It's not a statement of fact, because theft is "the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."[1] Robbery, on the other hand, is "taking or attempting to take something of value by force or threat of force and/or by putting the victim in fear." Based on your characterization, taxes are much more similar to robbery. However, taxes are not robbery, they're commerce ("the trading of something of economic value such as goods, services, information, or money between two or more entities"), because - in theory, at least - you're paying money to the government in exchange for useful things (roads, public services, enforced order, and so forth). If you think that the state can't responsibly spend it (I feel like the country as a whole spends money a lot less responsibly than the state of California, but yeah), then you have four options: replace the government, reform the government, leave the government, or complain. Continuing to use the things that the state is providing to you without paying for them as the state has found reasonable is stealing, just as it would be stealing if I went to a restaurant and didn't pay for my meal. Also, as an aside, I initially found it amusing that you (as a comparatively new user) were pointing a much older user at the welcome page; however, people must be reminded of the rules of discourse we operate under whenever they stray from them, despite how long they've been part of the community. Pointing him to the guidelines instead of the welcome page might have been slightly more appropriate, though. The rules there are much more concise, at least. [1] All quotes from wikipedia.
nika 16y ago
HomeGrocer was a previous attempt to deliver groceries this way that was started during the end of the dotcom boom. The vans Amazon has in Seattle are all ex-Home Grocer vans. In the early days it was very obvious, though they've repainted them more carefully now. I suspect Amazon picked them up cheap after HomeGrocer imploded.

mlinsey 16y ago

Are you sure? As I understand it, Amazon Fresh LLC is a separate legal entity, just like Lab 126 and A9, both of which are based in California.

buss 16y ago
I'm not sure about that. A9 and Lab126 don't share office space with the rest of Amazon, but Fresh is right in my building.

brianbreslin 16y ago

I'd assume the reason they are only in Seattle is because the margins on grocery are slim and the logistics a nightmare. So they are dipping their toes into their home market first. Effectively eating their own dog food for lack of a better expression. Launching in tons of cities requires lots of distribution points.

earl 16y ago

I don't know -- A2Z is in SF just off Market street, the employees receive Amazon stock, get discounts on amazon.com, work exclusively (afaik) for amazon.com, and some lawyer has figured out how they aren't actually working for amazon and thus amazon doesn't pay ca taxes. Seems pretty much like outright theft to me. http://public.a2z.com/index.html http://public.a2z.com/index.html

nika 16y ago
Amazon legally organizing their business so that they can avoid being forced (under threat of violence) to pay money to a state (that has proven it cannot responsibly spend it anyway) is not theft. It is, actually, theft avoidance. Theft is when you use force, or the threat of force, to take from someone to whome the property rightfully belongs. Taxation is closer to theft than tax avoidance.
- earl 16y ago
  Characterizing paying taxes -- the result of the democratic process, etc -- as theft under threat of violence makes you a fucking idiot.
  - nika 16y ago
    That wasn't a characterization, it was a statement of fact. That you need to characterize me as "a fucking idiot" reflects more on you than me. Please read this: http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
    - sorbus 16y ago
      It's not a statement of fact, because theft is "the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."[1] Robbery, on the other hand, is "taking or attempting to take something of value by force or threat of force and/or by putting the victim in fear." Based on your characterization, taxes are much more similar to robbery. However, taxes are not robbery, they're commerce ("the trading of something of economic value such as goods, services, information, or money between two or more entities"), because - in theory, at least - you're paying money to the government in exchange for useful things (roads, public services, enforced order, and so forth). If you think that the state can't responsibly spend it (I feel like the country as a whole spends money a lot less responsibly than the state of California, but yeah), then you have four options: replace the government, reform the government, leave the government, or complain. Continuing to use the things that the state is providing to you without paying for them as the state has found reasonable is stealing, just as it would be stealing if I went to a restaurant and didn't pay for my meal. Also, as an aside, I initially found it amusing that you (as a comparatively new user) were pointing a much older user at the welcome page; however, people must be reminded of the rules of discourse we operate under whenever they stray from them, despite how long they've been part of the community. Pointing him to the guidelines instead of the welcome page might have been slightly more appropriate, though. The rules there are much more concise, at least. [1] All quotes from wikipedia.

nika 16y ago

HomeGrocer was a previous attempt to deliver groceries this way that was started during the end of the dotcom boom. The vans Amazon has in Seattle are all ex-Home Grocer vans. In the early days it was very obvious, though they've repainted them more carefully now. I suspect Amazon picked them up cheap after HomeGrocer imploded.