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> The dominant use case for cryptocurrency is speculation. Speculators want to put value into the system, somehow have it become greater, and then take more val

by aazaa 7y ago

> The dominant use case for cryptocurrency is speculation. Speculators want to put value into the system, somehow have it become greater, and then take more value out of the system than they put in. This chestnut gets trotted out pretty regularly. What it ignores is the economic activity, largely untraceable, relating to payments outside of the US regulated financial system. Remember the ongoing problem in the US with blatant civil asset forfeiture abuses? https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police-practices/asset-forfeiture-abuse https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-po... Remember how the Department of Justice has deputized every financial institution in the US (and many outside of the US) as agents in the ridiculously ineffective wars on terror and drugs through AML/KYC regulations? Remember how that turns us all into subjects of an ongoing constitutional crisis, relegating 4th Amendment to historical footnote status? All for the sake of security theater. These are the things that the article (and countless others) seem to ignore when discussing Bitcoin use cases.

al2o3cr 7y ago
Not sure if "hey, it's not JUST for speculation it's good for criming too!" is much of an argument, but you do you.
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  Protecting yourself from civil forfeiture abuses doesn’t make you a criminal. It does have the potential of protecting your assets from lawful theft, assuming you can hold onto your keys.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    I was reading something recently, but I can't recall where, talking about one of the advantages of growing potatoes in feudal UK was that it was harder for the lord to steal them. You never knew if the lord was a little short on money this month that he wouldn't show up with a wagon and cart off a bunch of your hay or vegetables (the fraction you were allowed to keep, not what you owed the lord) to sell. Since you could leave root vegetables and tubers in the ground, there was a lot more friction in that process.
    - mdemare 7y ago
      Worth reading: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/10/14/book-review-against-the-grain/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/10/14/book-review-against-th...
- lawn 7y ago
  I'm curious, if people in China or North Korea would use it to evade some of their unjust laws, would you still dismiss it as "just for crime" too?
cowpig 7y ago
> This chestnut gets trotted out pretty regularly. What it ignores is the economic activity, largely untraceable, relating to payments outside of the US regulated financial system. You follow this up with some political points that I generally agree with, but I don't believe have anything to do whatsoever with any significant portion of cryprocurrency's use. Beyond speculation, cryptocurrency is used for: - Money laundering (to evade taxes, regulations, sanctions etc) - Various forms of financial fraud - Payments for illegal transactions (usually drugs or ransom) And to a much, much smaller extent: - for the legal things cash is used for The unbanked haven't been banked, and a new, programmable money hasn't yet emerged with much value. I love the ideas behind crypto, but have been sadly disillusioned by the reality so far
- hinkley 7y ago
  I don't think these people realize they're working against their own argument when they are disabusing people of legitimate uses of a financial instrument.
- mopsi 7y ago
  > Beyond speculation, cryptocurrency is used for: According to whom? The studies I've seen [1] say that a quarter of users are engaged in illegal activities and their share of all transactions is 44%. Their share is in decline as more applications are developed and userbase expands. It should also be noted that there are many activities that are illegal, but not really harmful to anyone. For example, marijuana prohibition laws are obviously unjustified and are being overturned across the world these days. [1] Eg https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/business-law-blog/blog/2018/02/sex-drugs-and-bitcoin-how-much-illegal-activity-financed-through https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/business-law-blog/blog/2018/02/sex-...
hinkley 7y ago
> the economic activity, largely untraceable This chestnut gets trotted out pretty regularly. We have a case posted here just a week or two ago of someone finally having a good enough reason to trace a bunch of transactions, find the culprits, and arrest them. These are not untraceable.
ur-whale 7y ago
> remember how the Department of Justice has deputized every financial institution in the US (and many outside of the US) Most people simply have no idea how wide, deep and far the sinister arm of the US KYC/AML process reaches in the world economy, the level of control and power it grants the USG, and how much inflamed badwill the US is collecting internationally because of that. Russia and China and trying as hard as they can to get out of the USD system for a reason. I can't wait for them to succeed in lifting the yoke of the US currency reserve, and when they do, the world will be a much better place.

by aazaa 7y ago

al2o3cr 7y ago

Not sure if "hey, it's not JUST for speculation it's good for criming too!" is much of an argument, but you do you.

oarsinsync 7y ago
Protecting yourself from civil forfeiture abuses doesn’t make you a criminal. It does have the potential of protecting your assets from lawful theft, assuming you can hold onto your keys.
- hinkley 7y ago
  I was reading something recently, but I can't recall where, talking about one of the advantages of growing potatoes in feudal UK was that it was harder for the lord to steal them. You never knew if the lord was a little short on money this month that he wouldn't show up with a wagon and cart off a bunch of your hay or vegetables (the fraction you were allowed to keep, not what you owed the lord) to sell. Since you could leave root vegetables and tubers in the ground, there was a lot more friction in that process.
  - mdemare 7y ago
    Worth reading: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/10/14/book-review-against-the-grain/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/10/14/book-review-against-th...
lawn 7y ago
I'm curious, if people in China or North Korea would use it to evade some of their unjust laws, would you still dismiss it as "just for crime" too?

cowpig 7y ago

> This chestnut gets trotted out pretty regularly. What it ignores is the economic activity, largely untraceable, relating to payments outside of the US regulated financial system. You follow this up with some political points that I generally agree with, but I don't believe have anything to do whatsoever with any significant portion of cryprocurrency's use. Beyond speculation, cryptocurrency is used for: - Money laundering (to evade taxes, regulations, sanctions etc) - Various forms of financial fraud - Payments for illegal transactions (usually drugs or ransom) And to a much, much smaller extent: - for the legal things cash is used for The unbanked haven't been banked, and a new, programmable money hasn't yet emerged with much value. I love the ideas behind crypto, but have been sadly disillusioned by the reality so far

hinkley 7y ago
I don't think these people realize they're working against their own argument when they are disabusing people of legitimate uses of a financial instrument.
mopsi 7y ago
> Beyond speculation, cryptocurrency is used for: According to whom? The studies I've seen [1] say that a quarter of users are engaged in illegal activities and their share of all transactions is 44%. Their share is in decline as more applications are developed and userbase expands. It should also be noted that there are many activities that are illegal, but not really harmful to anyone. For example, marijuana prohibition laws are obviously unjustified and are being overturned across the world these days. [1] Eg https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/business-law-blog/blog/2018/02/sex-drugs-and-bitcoin-how-much-illegal-activity-financed-through https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/business-law-blog/blog/2018/02/sex-...

hinkley 7y ago

> the economic activity, largely untraceable This chestnut gets trotted out pretty regularly. We have a case posted here just a week or two ago of someone finally having a good enough reason to trace a bunch of transactions, find the culprits, and arrest them. These are not untraceable.

ur-whale 7y ago

> remember how the Department of Justice has deputized every financial institution in the US (and many outside of the US) Most people simply have no idea how wide, deep and far the sinister arm of the US KYC/AML process reaches in the world economy, the level of control and power it grants the USG, and how much inflamed badwill the US is collecting internationally because of that. Russia and China and trying as hard as they can to get out of the USD system for a reason. I can't wait for them to succeed in lifting the yoke of the US currency reserve, and when they do, the world will be a much better place.