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> It also suggests that our Sun Belt cities, built around the automobile, aren’t designed for pedestrians at all. The trend of fatalities could worsen as more p

> It also suggests that our Sun Belt cities, built around the automobile, aren’t designed for pedestrians at all. The trend of fatalities could worsen as more people take to walking and cycling where they previously had not. This goes for the classic morality play that "cars bad, walking good" which, like, I get and agree with. One of the reasons I moved to Seattle and live in the city is specifically because I wanted to be somewhere more pedestrian and bike friendly. However, I also grew up in the South and the reality of the climate there is that it will never be very pedestrian friendly. When I lived in Orlando, I tried really hard to avoid using my car. I moved to one of the more pedestrian friendly neighborhoods (College Park). But, when it's 95+°F six months out of the year, it sucks to walk. You will show up covered in sweat. With the humidity levels, you will sweat just standing still in the shade. Florida was barely developed at all until air conditioning and the automobile were invented. Seriously, look at the population graph [0]. While the rest of the US thinks of those technologies as social ills, in Florida they are critical enablers of livability. If it wasn't for those, the state would still be an uninhabited sweltering swamp of mosquitos and malaria. (You can argue that maybe it should be, but most of that population explosion came from the Northeast and Midwest, so who's really to blame here?) This is another example of a pattern I see really frequently in the US where the North throws shade on the South. Yanks have decided that (a) you're bad if you drive a car (b) you're gross if you show up somewhere covered in sweat, and (c) you're unsophisticated if show up in flip-flops and shorts. Then they make people in the South feel bad for not upholding those values, despite the fact that the climate is massively different there. My impression is that places like India and Thailand have cultural norms around clothing and perspiration that let you actually function outdoors in hot climates. But here in the US, you're obliged to pretend like you're in Los Angeles or Boston even when it's thirty degrees hotter where you live. [0]: http://worldpopulationreview.com/states/florida-population/#population-data http://worldpopulationreview.com/states/florida-population/#...

non-entity 7y ago
I suppose you're right. I've lived in GA, SC, and now Florida and have decided to give up attempting any sort of walking lifestyle outside of leisure or small trips. Dripping in sweat after 1 mile of walking doesnt seem very practical
- traderjane 7y ago
  What does that have to do with people dying in those cities? Are pedestrians falling over in a haze? And isn’t the west coast the land of sandals and hoodies?
  - non-entity 7y ago
    No, but the article attributes the higher number of deaths in part to the design of sunny cities being primarily for automobiles. And while many (including other chains on thos thread) seem to suggest building more infrastructure for civilians, the comment above me makes a point about the practicality of that solution (albeit with a bit of a tanget included) Also my point about the customs (which I've removed as it was more related to the aforementioned tangent) was more about cultural response to sweat and BO than the clothing part.
traderjane 7y ago
Somehow there’s no discussion of the article here, nothing about traffic fatalities per metric or from the pedestrian point of view. It’s people in their respective cities who are dying, being killed by their metaphorical neighbors.
viburnum 7y ago
When you make lots of room for driving fast and parking you’re pushing buildings farther and farther apart and imposing the costs on pedestrians. Postwar American cities are unwalkable by design. Hot places should have narrow streets and three or four story buildings so there’s always shade somewhere on the street (as was the norm nearly everywhere before cars).
- munificent 7y ago
  > Hot places should have narrow streets and three or four story buildings so there’s always shade somewhere on the street If you do that in Florida, your city will now flood every afternoon in the summer monsoon season. Florida has zoning laws that require a certain percentage of non-paved land so that the ground is able to drain rainwater fast enough. Again, this is another example of tacitly assuming the way Northern cities do it is right and that Southern cities doing it differently are because they're stupid and not because, just maybe, they understand their particular climate. > Postwar American cities are unwalkable by design. Yes. Another way to say it is that they are drivable by design. And in an area where driving is significantly more comfortable than walking, there is a good argument that that indeed optimizes for human needs better than transplanting Philadelphia circa 1834 to Central Florida and then wondering why the buildings keep sinking, flash floods keep washing everyone away, and the downtown corridor is dead because there's no parking and still no one wants to walk there because it's too hot even for a dozen blocks.
  - viburnum 7y ago
    Nope, the Netherlands is one of the densest countries in the world and it’s below sea level. Sprawl is not necessary.
    - munificent 7y ago
      > it’s below sea level. Sea level has nothing to do with it. Orlando is 82' above sea level. Average July temperature in Amsterdam is 54-68°F. In Orlando, it is 76-92°F. It feels good to be outside in the Netherlands. It definitely does not feel good to be outside in Florida most of the year, unless you're in a swimsuit in the shade. As far as water goes, as I said in my comment, what matters is rain. Peak precipitation in Amsterdam is December, with about 2.4 inches accumulating in the month. Peak in Orlando is July, with 6.0 inches accumulating. But the important number of urban planning is peak rainfall. Florida has a monsoon season which means intense but short-lived rain. You can get flash-flood levels of rain and then have it sunny two hours later. The highest single-day rainfall in Orlando was 8.19 inches. In most places, a couple of inches of rain in a single day is a 100-year storm. In Florida, that's a Tuesday.

non-entity 7y ago

I suppose you're right. I've lived in GA, SC, and now Florida and have decided to give up attempting any sort of walking lifestyle outside of leisure or small trips. Dripping in sweat after 1 mile of walking doesnt seem very practical

traderjane 7y ago
What does that have to do with people dying in those cities? Are pedestrians falling over in a haze? And isn’t the west coast the land of sandals and hoodies?
- non-entity 7y ago
  No, but the article attributes the higher number of deaths in part to the design of sunny cities being primarily for automobiles. And while many (including other chains on thos thread) seem to suggest building more infrastructure for civilians, the comment above me makes a point about the practicality of that solution (albeit with a bit of a tanget included) Also my point about the customs (which I've removed as it was more related to the aforementioned tangent) was more about cultural response to sweat and BO than the clothing part.

traderjane 7y ago

Somehow there’s no discussion of the article here, nothing about traffic fatalities per metric or from the pedestrian point of view. It’s people in their respective cities who are dying, being killed by their metaphorical neighbors.

viburnum 7y ago

When you make lots of room for driving fast and parking you’re pushing buildings farther and farther apart and imposing the costs on pedestrians. Postwar American cities are unwalkable by design. Hot places should have narrow streets and three or four story buildings so there’s always shade somewhere on the street (as was the norm nearly everywhere before cars).

munificent 7y ago
> Hot places should have narrow streets and three or four story buildings so there’s always shade somewhere on the street If you do that in Florida, your city will now flood every afternoon in the summer monsoon season. Florida has zoning laws that require a certain percentage of non-paved land so that the ground is able to drain rainwater fast enough. Again, this is another example of tacitly assuming the way Northern cities do it is right and that Southern cities doing it differently are because they're stupid and not because, just maybe, they understand their particular climate. > Postwar American cities are unwalkable by design. Yes. Another way to say it is that they are drivable by design. And in an area where driving is significantly more comfortable than walking, there is a good argument that that indeed optimizes for human needs better than transplanting Philadelphia circa 1834 to Central Florida and then wondering why the buildings keep sinking, flash floods keep washing everyone away, and the downtown corridor is dead because there's no parking and still no one wants to walk there because it's too hot even for a dozen blocks.
- viburnum 7y ago
  Nope, the Netherlands is one of the densest countries in the world and it’s below sea level. Sprawl is not necessary.
  - munificent 7y ago
    > it’s below sea level. Sea level has nothing to do with it. Orlando is 82' above sea level. Average July temperature in Amsterdam is 54-68°F. In Orlando, it is 76-92°F. It feels good to be outside in the Netherlands. It definitely does not feel good to be outside in Florida most of the year, unless you're in a swimsuit in the shade. As far as water goes, as I said in my comment, what matters is rain. Peak precipitation in Amsterdam is December, with about 2.4 inches accumulating in the month. Peak in Orlando is July, with 6.0 inches accumulating. But the important number of urban planning is peak rainfall. Florida has a monsoon season which means intense but short-lived rain. You can get flash-flood levels of rain and then have it sunny two hours later. The highest single-day rainfall in Orlando was 8.19 inches. In most places, a couple of inches of rain in a single day is a 100-year storm. In Florida, that's a Tuesday.