5 ms·

Addressing some misconceptions about our plans for improving the security of DNS

24 points by migueldemoura 7y ago

ahbyb 7y ago
>The first claim is that Google is going to redirect user DNS traffic to Google's own DNS or another DoH-compliant DNS provider. That is incorrect. Because we believe in user choice and user control, we have no plans to force users to change their DNS provider. [...] We’re simply enabling support in Chrome for secure DoH connections if a user’s DNS provider of choice offers it. Chrome will use the DoH frontend of the DNS server of the computer it's running on, respecting the user's choice. Instead, the Mozilla Corporation has decided that Firefox will route all DNS requests through CloudFlare regardless of user settings.
- the_why_of_y 7y ago
  > Firefox will route all DNS requests through CloudFlare regardless of user settings. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-dns-over-https#w_switching-providers https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-dns-over-https#...
  - ahbyb 7y ago
    I was talking about defaults. Of course you can also change them on Chrome too. But defaults matter because most people stick to them. And the default of Firefox will send navigation history to Cloudflare.
    - zaarn 7y ago
      IIRC Cloudflare is currently not the default and there is no plans to turn on DoH per default if there is no way for Firefox to properly preselect the provider the user wants.
jwilk 7y ago
Archived copy, which can be read without JS enabled: https://archive.is/5GypR https://archive.is/5GypR
danShumway 7y ago
The claim that ISPs are concerned about Google DNS being anti-competitive or too powerful really rubs me the wrong way. Google has offered DNS services for years, and ISPs didn't care. The 'problem' isn't that Google is offering its own DNS -- it's that now those queries are encrypted and ISPs can't read them. The pushback on this has been really eye opening for me. I knew that obviously ISPs were reading DNS queries, but I think the amount of effort ISPs are putting into stopping what is a fairly basic security measure means that I under-appreciated just how much they care about that data. Apparently unencrypted DNS is a bigger threat than I realized. If ISPs aren't monetizing this stuff now, they're probably planning to.
- zzzcpan 7y ago
  It's not about selling the data for ISPs, never was, never will be. For ISPs almost all websites are uniquely identifiable by looking at clear text SNI and Host: headers. But it's much worse, 95% of top 1 million websites are uniquely identifiable just by looking at IP addresses during page load, basically netflow data that pretty much all ISPs store. And this data is more detailed, than DNS queries. There is a lot of detailed data to monetize, cheaply, with no ability to hide, besides Tor and VPN. ISPs couldn't care less about such silly attempts to limit spying that don't really work, what ISPs actually care about is control. They want to be the ones who decide which websites have which IP addresses, they want to be able to change them, block them, do address translations, maybe show you ads on nonexistent domains, etc. Mozilla, Google and Cloudflare are no better than ISPs here either. They don't want you to know all of the above. Mozilla wants money from Cloudflare, Cloudflare wants to control critical piece of infrastructure pretty much all competing CDNs rely on, Google probably doesn't need it, but just can't help itself to get its hands on that data.
  - JoBrad 7y ago
    Collecting your days and _being able_ to sell it was at least important enough that ISPs convinced Congress to pass a law allowing them to do so. It would take quite a bit of evidence to convince me that they don’t currently do exactly that. https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/house-votes-to-allow-internet-service-providers-to-sell-share-your-personal-information/ https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/house-votes-to-a...
WarOnPrivacy 7y ago
My issue is with browser based DoH is when it defaults to ON. That was Mozilla's original plan for Firefox. That's a problem for those of us who use DNS to reduce the risk from malware, advertising and other invasive technologies. DoH effectively circumvents those protections. After a crapstorm, Mozilla walked that back and made DoH a user choice. Even better, Firefox queries the use-application-dns.net zone - which (added to a local DNS server) tells Firefox to turn off DoH. This is super helpful for those who use DNS to safeguard networks. Now, better than DoH and a more elegant solution overall is DNS over TLS (RFC7858), which is simply encrypted DNS. It's the natural next step. Frankly, we all should have been using it for years. It's just beginning to gain support, tho. As it stands now only a handful of public DNS resolvers support it (Quad9, Cloudflare, Google, someone in Germany). None of the root servers do. Nor do ISPs'. My approach is to run a local DNS resolver (Unbound) which forwards it's queries over TLS. Local users' queries are plain text but the forwarded (public network) queries are encrypted.

24 points by migueldemoura 7y ago

>The first claim is that Google is going to redirect user DNS traffic to Google's own DNS or another DoH-compliant DNS provider. That is incorrect. Because we believe in user choice and user control, we have no plans to force users to change their DNS provider. [...] We’re simply enabling support in Chrome for secure DoH connections if a user’s DNS provider of choice offers it. Chrome will use the DoH frontend of the DNS server of the computer it's running on, respecting the user's choice. Instead, the Mozilla Corporation has decided that Firefox will route all DNS requests through CloudFlare regardless of user settings.

the_why_of_y 7y ago
> Firefox will route all DNS requests through CloudFlare regardless of user settings. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-dns-over-https#w_switching-providers https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-dns-over-https#...
- ahbyb 7y ago
  I was talking about defaults. Of course you can also change them on Chrome too. But defaults matter because most people stick to them. And the default of Firefox will send navigation history to Cloudflare.
  - zaarn 7y ago
    IIRC Cloudflare is currently not the default and there is no plans to turn on DoH per default if there is no way for Firefox to properly preselect the provider the user wants.

jwilk 7y ago

Archived copy, which can be read without JS enabled: https://archive.is/5GypR https://archive.is/5GypR

danShumway 7y ago

The claim that ISPs are concerned about Google DNS being anti-competitive or too powerful really rubs me the wrong way. Google has offered DNS services for years, and ISPs didn't care. The 'problem' isn't that Google is offering its own DNS -- it's that now those queries are encrypted and ISPs can't read them. The pushback on this has been really eye opening for me. I knew that obviously ISPs were reading DNS queries, but I think the amount of effort ISPs are putting into stopping what is a fairly basic security measure means that I under-appreciated just how much they care about that data. Apparently unencrypted DNS is a bigger threat than I realized. If ISPs aren't monetizing this stuff now, they're probably planning to.

zzzcpan 7y ago
It's not about selling the data for ISPs, never was, never will be. For ISPs almost all websites are uniquely identifiable by looking at clear text SNI and Host: headers. But it's much worse, 95% of top 1 million websites are uniquely identifiable just by looking at IP addresses during page load, basically netflow data that pretty much all ISPs store. And this data is more detailed, than DNS queries. There is a lot of detailed data to monetize, cheaply, with no ability to hide, besides Tor and VPN. ISPs couldn't care less about such silly attempts to limit spying that don't really work, what ISPs actually care about is control. They want to be the ones who decide which websites have which IP addresses, they want to be able to change them, block them, do address translations, maybe show you ads on nonexistent domains, etc. Mozilla, Google and Cloudflare are no better than ISPs here either. They don't want you to know all of the above. Mozilla wants money from Cloudflare, Cloudflare wants to control critical piece of infrastructure pretty much all competing CDNs rely on, Google probably doesn't need it, but just can't help itself to get its hands on that data.
- JoBrad 7y ago
  Collecting your days and _being able_ to sell it was at least important enough that ISPs convinced Congress to pass a law allowing them to do so. It would take quite a bit of evidence to convince me that they don’t currently do exactly that. https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/house-votes-to-allow-internet-service-providers-to-sell-share-your-personal-information/ https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/house-votes-to-a...

WarOnPrivacy 7y ago

My issue is with browser based DoH is when it defaults to ON. That was Mozilla's original plan for Firefox. That's a problem for those of us who use DNS to reduce the risk from malware, advertising and other invasive technologies. DoH effectively circumvents those protections. After a crapstorm, Mozilla walked that back and made DoH a user choice. Even better, Firefox queries the use-application-dns.net zone - which (added to a local DNS server) tells Firefox to turn off DoH. This is super helpful for those who use DNS to safeguard networks. Now, better than DoH and a more elegant solution overall is DNS over TLS (RFC7858), which is simply encrypted DNS. It's the natural next step. Frankly, we all should have been using it for years. It's just beginning to gain support, tho. As it stands now only a handful of public DNS resolvers support it (Quad9, Cloudflare, Google, someone in Germany). None of the root servers do. Nor do ISPs'. My approach is to run a local DNS resolver (Unbound) which forwards it's queries over TLS. Local users' queries are plain text but the forwarded (public network) queries are encrypted.