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The "less capable" Keep in mind, we're not all born with the same socio-economic advantages. The idea that you're more capable because you're successful is mer

The "less capable" Keep in mind, we're not all born with the same socio-economic advantages. The idea that you're more capable because you're successful is merely confirmation bias. Furthermore, your comment necessarily implies that anyone not as "capable", whatever that means, is therefore deserving of poverty and hardship. That's a moral stance I cannot support.

aantix 7y ago
We as society vote with our money as to what we value. We make value judgements all of the time. You probably walk by the homeless and druggies all of the time. You don't volunteer your time or money because you're making an unconscious decision that I am better than that, that is not worth spending my time or money on. And that value judgement is important - it shows yourself what you don't want to become, what you do and don't want to spend your time on, the trajectory of your life.
bluGill 7y ago
While I believe there is a range of capabilities, there is plenty of research showing that for most people the limit is practice (ie 10,000 hours), not something fundamental in the person. There are very few places where science has found something that makes on person objectivity better at a task once trained. There are those who are clearly less able. Downs syndrome, blind, are a few of the obvious limits that mean someone is unable accomplish anything. However these are a minority and can be ignored in this discussion (though we will have to circle back to figure out what to do about them). Or to put it a different way: I believe in equality of opportunity NOT outcome. You get the results of what you work for. Yes there is some luck, but luck is the difference between rich and upper middle class, not poor and middle class.
- LargeWu 7y ago
  So your thesis is simply "Poor people are lazy. If they worked harder they wouldn't be poor"? You're right that the difference between the middle class and the poor isn't luck. The difference between the poor and the middle class is poverty. Poverty isn't just about being poor. It's about being poor BECAUSE you're poor. It's generally cyclical, it can span generations, and is very difficult to break out of. People don't get ahead when they can't afford to eat. People don't get ahead when they can't afford to go to a school in a better neighborhood. People don't get ahead when they get sick and can't afford health care. I believe you have a fundamental misunderstanding about why people are poor, and remain poor. The idea that poor people have 'equality of opportunity' in any practical way is not based in reality.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    In the US, as well as most of Europe (this list is not complete): there are essentially zero poor. What well call poor are really lower middle class. Even the bad schools are good enough to break out of - it might not get one generation from poverty to rich, but it can get to middle class. I wouldn't pin remaining in lower middle class (which we consider poor) on just lazy though. Some are, but I've also met poor people who are not lazy, they just don't see how their hard work isn't in the right areas to get out. There is a lack of examples, and parents often don't teach their the basics of how to get ahead (in part because they don't know). The opportunity to get out of those bad neighborhoods exists for anybody. (Note that systematic racism in previous generations is mostly gone, but the after effects are still with us) The poor elsewhere do lack opportunities and so cannot break out. I will grant that.

aantix 7y ago

We as society vote with our money as to what we value. We make value judgements all of the time. You probably walk by the homeless and druggies all of the time. You don't volunteer your time or money because you're making an unconscious decision that I am better than that, that is not worth spending my time or money on. And that value judgement is important - it shows yourself what you don't want to become, what you do and don't want to spend your time on, the trajectory of your life.

bluGill 7y ago

While I believe there is a range of capabilities, there is plenty of research showing that for most people the limit is practice (ie 10,000 hours), not something fundamental in the person. There are very few places where science has found something that makes on person objectivity better at a task once trained. There are those who are clearly less able. Downs syndrome, blind, are a few of the obvious limits that mean someone is unable accomplish anything. However these are a minority and can be ignored in this discussion (though we will have to circle back to figure out what to do about them). Or to put it a different way: I believe in equality of opportunity NOT outcome. You get the results of what you work for. Yes there is some luck, but luck is the difference between rich and upper middle class, not poor and middle class.

LargeWu 7y ago
So your thesis is simply "Poor people are lazy. If they worked harder they wouldn't be poor"? You're right that the difference between the middle class and the poor isn't luck. The difference between the poor and the middle class is poverty. Poverty isn't just about being poor. It's about being poor BECAUSE you're poor. It's generally cyclical, it can span generations, and is very difficult to break out of. People don't get ahead when they can't afford to eat. People don't get ahead when they can't afford to go to a school in a better neighborhood. People don't get ahead when they get sick and can't afford health care. I believe you have a fundamental misunderstanding about why people are poor, and remain poor. The idea that poor people have 'equality of opportunity' in any practical way is not based in reality.
- bluGill 7y ago
  In the US, as well as most of Europe (this list is not complete): there are essentially zero poor. What well call poor are really lower middle class. Even the bad schools are good enough to break out of - it might not get one generation from poverty to rich, but it can get to middle class. I wouldn't pin remaining in lower middle class (which we consider poor) on just lazy though. Some are, but I've also met poor people who are not lazy, they just don't see how their hard work isn't in the right areas to get out. There is a lack of examples, and parents often don't teach their the basics of how to get ahead (in part because they don't know). The opportunity to get out of those bad neighborhoods exists for anybody. (Note that systematic racism in previous generations is mostly gone, but the after effects are still with us) The poor elsewhere do lack opportunities and so cannot break out. I will grant that.