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Well yes I agree in principle but you as a worker voluntarily choose to work somewhere. Sometimes it’s only when you actually start at a job when you realize th

Well yes I agree in principle but you as a worker voluntarily choose to work somewhere. Sometimes it’s only when you actually start at a job when you realize that there’s a disconnect between a company’s behavior and your own principles.

FussyZeus 7y ago
> voluntarily choose If my workplace tomorrow decided to implement things I ethically disagree with, I cannot in good faith say that I would quit. It's easy to say stuff like that, but when you have a mortgage, have family that depend on you, a home you've put tons of work into, hobbies you love... I mean you can call me a sellout if you want, and I couldn't really disagree, but why is that burden on me? To relieve the politicians of the awful work involved in doing their job? My job is to write code. Their job is to write law. Why must I quit mine and jeopardize my livelihood so they can eschew theirs?
- Retric 7y ago
  I don’t have a problem with that on day one, but I do think you should start looking for a job in that situation. This results in increased costs via turnover which discourages unethical behavior, and let’s you do something meaningful without pushing the full burden to you.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    I’m not disagreeing with anything you’re saying, but I still say “just get a different job” is a huge simplification of the issue. An issue which again, I put forward, is not something I should be responsible for fixing.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  It's not either/or; it's both/and. We need politicians that are actually doing their jobs. And we need people with consciences working for tech companies. We need both. As for quitting... if you were a factory worker in a one-company town, you'd be in a worse spot. But I hear that software engineers are in demand these days. And if you're in somewhere like the Bay Area, there are many options available to you. For that matter, there may be many options available to you even within your own company. You may not be able in good conscience to work on that project, but can you transfer teams? And, if you're feeling that it might be useful, tell them why. On the other hand, that leaves such a team with nobody left working on it that has a functioning conscience. That's not ideal, either. But that comes down to your judgment about whether you can actually change the course of the team. If you can't, what's the point in staying?
- atoav 7y ago
  Everybody has an impact, culture comes always first, then comes law. If we are lucky and the right people are in office bad culture gets outlawed. If we are unlucky and our political structures influencable by business the existing culture becomes the law. I have two grandfathers, one found a way to evade the Nazis and one was a Nazi. The former always said they were uncultured and barbaric, without humanist values. The latter said all he did was following orders and the law, and they built streets after all. In my eyes the ahistorical period is over, and in hindsight it never matters how convincing your excuse is, when your grandchildren ask you what you did when X happend. If you can change culture for the better, do it.
  - eevilspock 7y ago
    Yes, culture is primary. (though I'm confused by the rest of that paragraph) The Banality of Systemic Evil: https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/the-banality-of-systemic-evil/ https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/the-banalit... It's sad that thoughts such as yours and mine get downvoted. Even an Upton Sinclair quote that no one can honestly disagree with gets downvoted, all because we're touching on people's comfy lives and self-esteem.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      Again, it's easy to say 'quit your job' when you're a 20-something living in a group apartment, with no family, and no real responsibilities, in San Francisco and a new job is more or less a few phone calls away. It's quite another when you're providing for a household, with family with medical issues, shouldering debt and just making the ends meet, which is a much more common situation to find yourself in, here in the States at least. And that's not to say I wouldn't be finding a new job, but again, I wouldn't have to find a job, nor would my boss be pressuring me to do this sort of unethical stuff, if the unethical stuff was simply made illegal. Settles the matter entirely. Will there be bad actors skirting those regulations? Of course, there always are, but laws don't stop 100% of bad activity and that's never stopped us from trying.
- gwright 7y ago
  > but why is that burden on me? Because you are always responsible for your own actions. You may face difficult choices and unwanted consequences, but you can't abdicate your responsibility for your actions. Note, I'm not suggesting that in the particular scenario you described that there is an obvious right or wrong action, just that you have to accept the consequences of the whatever you choose to do.
flukus 7y ago
With google, facebook and just about any other ad driven company you know well before day 1 what their record is like when it comes to respecting privacy. So developers obviously don't care, which leads us back to regulation as the only option.

FussyZeus 7y ago

> voluntarily choose If my workplace tomorrow decided to implement things I ethically disagree with, I cannot in good faith say that I would quit. It's easy to say stuff like that, but when you have a mortgage, have family that depend on you, a home you've put tons of work into, hobbies you love... I mean you can call me a sellout if you want, and I couldn't really disagree, but why is that burden on me? To relieve the politicians of the awful work involved in doing their job? My job is to write code. Their job is to write law. Why must I quit mine and jeopardize my livelihood so they can eschew theirs?

Retric 7y ago
I don’t have a problem with that on day one, but I do think you should start looking for a job in that situation. This results in increased costs via turnover which discourages unethical behavior, and let’s you do something meaningful without pushing the full burden to you.
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  I’m not disagreeing with anything you’re saying, but I still say “just get a different job” is a huge simplification of the issue. An issue which again, I put forward, is not something I should be responsible for fixing.
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
It's not either/or; it's both/and. We need politicians that are actually doing their jobs. And we need people with consciences working for tech companies. We need both. As for quitting... if you were a factory worker in a one-company town, you'd be in a worse spot. But I hear that software engineers are in demand these days. And if you're in somewhere like the Bay Area, there are many options available to you. For that matter, there may be many options available to you even within your own company. You may not be able in good conscience to work on that project, but can you transfer teams? And, if you're feeling that it might be useful, tell them why. On the other hand, that leaves such a team with nobody left working on it that has a functioning conscience. That's not ideal, either. But that comes down to your judgment about whether you can actually change the course of the team. If you can't, what's the point in staying?
atoav 7y ago
Everybody has an impact, culture comes always first, then comes law. If we are lucky and the right people are in office bad culture gets outlawed. If we are unlucky and our political structures influencable by business the existing culture becomes the law. I have two grandfathers, one found a way to evade the Nazis and one was a Nazi. The former always said they were uncultured and barbaric, without humanist values. The latter said all he did was following orders and the law, and they built streets after all. In my eyes the ahistorical period is over, and in hindsight it never matters how convincing your excuse is, when your grandchildren ask you what you did when X happend. If you can change culture for the better, do it.
- eevilspock 7y ago
  Yes, culture is primary. (though I'm confused by the rest of that paragraph) The Banality of Systemic Evil: https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/the-banality-of-systemic-evil/ https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/the-banalit... It's sad that thoughts such as yours and mine get downvoted. Even an Upton Sinclair quote that no one can honestly disagree with gets downvoted, all because we're touching on people's comfy lives and self-esteem.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    Again, it's easy to say 'quit your job' when you're a 20-something living in a group apartment, with no family, and no real responsibilities, in San Francisco and a new job is more or less a few phone calls away. It's quite another when you're providing for a household, with family with medical issues, shouldering debt and just making the ends meet, which is a much more common situation to find yourself in, here in the States at least. And that's not to say I wouldn't be finding a new job, but again, I wouldn't have to find a job, nor would my boss be pressuring me to do this sort of unethical stuff, if the unethical stuff was simply made illegal. Settles the matter entirely. Will there be bad actors skirting those regulations? Of course, there always are, but laws don't stop 100% of bad activity and that's never stopped us from trying.
gwright 7y ago
> but why is that burden on me? Because you are always responsible for your own actions. You may face difficult choices and unwanted consequences, but you can't abdicate your responsibility for your actions. Note, I'm not suggesting that in the particular scenario you described that there is an obvious right or wrong action, just that you have to accept the consequences of the whatever you choose to do.

flukus 7y ago

With google, facebook and just about any other ad driven company you know well before day 1 what their record is like when it comes to respecting privacy. So developers obviously don't care, which leads us back to regulation as the only option.