8 ms·

The American System of Tipping Makes No Sense

61 points by flurdy 7y ago

planetzero 7y ago
"By outsourcing compensation to consumers, companies can pay their employees less" They pay their employees less because otherwise, they won't be able to stay in business without radically raising their prices. I wonder if the same people that want to get rid of our tipping system would be willing to pay double the price for breakfast?
- skinnymuch 7y ago
  Why would breakfast be double the price? Wouldn’t that mean tipping on avg is more than the meal price?
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    Because everyone in the restaurant industry systematically underestimates tip income. It’s a pretty corrupt industry by modern standards. Waitstaff would get paid way more and the employer would actually have to pay taxes at value. Prices wouldn’t double at most places, but some waiters at high volume or expensive restaurants make a lot of money, and factoring those wages would be tough on cash flow.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - social_quotient 7y ago
    If tips are gone then the wage would be regulated higher by the business (read as “should”). Seemingly it would just absorb the 15-30% tip amounts but a lot of places would have to account better for the time when things are slow. Instead of the server burdening there slow sales (driver of the tip) the business would have to guarantee the wage. It takes the employee out of the opportunistic approach that tipping seems to suggest. The same happens when you take commissions away. The sales staff now wants a higher equilibrium to account for the lack of an upside. I can’t say double is the right number but I’m sure it’s higher than just the effective 15-30% tip.
    - happytoexplain 7y ago
      >15-30% Isn't 15-20% the effective standard range in the US for restaurants?
      - skinnymuch 7y ago
        Yeah. 30% is pretty high to give.
  - planetzero 7y ago
    Full time employees will now cost much more to the employer: taxes, health care, benefits, a higher wage (the wage of a waiter is usually much lower than the standard minimum wage). All these costs add up and the result will be a much higher end cost for your meals. Restaurants usually have razor thin margins as it is...if they even make it past their first couple of years in business. Again, I feel like most people complain about the wages, but will then complain about the meal costs when they go up because they misunderstand the costs in running a business. I know many waiters and waitresses and most make way more in tips than they would ever get if they were paid an average wage. I think if you talked to most waiters/waitresses, they would want to keep the tipping system.
    - skinnymuch 7y ago
      Why would you have to provide benefits just because someone is full time? Vast majority of food service places aren’t huge operations. Whatever regulation rules force benefits for employees certainly don’t apply to a restaurant with 1 or 2 dozen total employees. Here you seem to know businesses will do what they want if they can get away with it when it comes to employment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21308309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21308309. In that example you’d probably agree benefits don’t need to suddenly happen if a business can get away with it.
- ako 7y ago
  If you pay for it by paying a higher price, or by tipping, doesn't really matter for the customer. This is just a scheme to circumvent paying social security and tax costs.
- dawnerd 7y ago
  15-20% is not double or radical. I would gladly pay that much more if I didn’t have to tip.
  - glofish 7y ago
    I don't get it - if you are fine paying the exact same amount why does it bother you to add that as a tip? I can understand people that say that the cost of meals are in fact misrepresented because you are expected to tip. But if that is not factor I don't see what makes it so unbearable to add 20%
    - Symbiote 7y ago
      Tax is paid, and there's no longer unfair discrimination due to age or sex appeal of the waiter.
    - happytoexplain 7y ago
      It sounds like you're under the impression that people dislike tipping because they feel they're paying "more", but the parent post wouldn't make sense in that context.
      - glofish 7y ago
        I am fairly sure that most people don't like tipping they feel that you are being "coerced" to pay more. If the tipping would be about paying less (i.e. you may reduce this bill 20% if you did not like the service) do you honestly think anyone would complain?
        skinnymuch 7y ago
        Your second paragraph doesn’t have to do with your first. Your second is asking if people want to get more for less. That would be true in many other examples too. I’d be curious about the first assumption. I also assumed what OP did. Tipping is annoying for me. I’d rather it just be included everywhere. I don’t like having to think about tipping. I feel like youtube comments are the sort of place I’d see a lot of people think they would actually save 20% from no tipping being a universal thing. The system is great right now if you want to save money. If you’re not going to a place again in the next year. Tipping will not benefit or hurt you in any way since you’re skipping the tip at the end. And if you don’t care about the server’s financial well being, then this won’t matter to you.
- galkk 7y ago
  Assuming typical 15%-20% tip, from where comes the double price for the breakfast?
- llampx 7y ago
  I've lived in the US, and now live in Germany. Sit-down breakfast is often cheaper here than the States, and you don't have to leave 20% as a tip. The only thing that I've run into is that water is not free. And that "service with a smile" doesn't really exist here as an ethos. You receive the same dour service no matter how much you pay.
- pkaye 7y ago
  So the choice is 15-20% tip or double the price? That doesn't add up.
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  It would be more constructive if you would apply mathematical reasoning to your post and come back.
- ilkan 7y ago
  a) That's not a business, it's a bait-and-switch scam. b) Non-tip countries have many restaurants.
  - planetzero 7y ago
    a) so something you know is the switch for the past 50 years or more is somehow bait and switch? b) Of course non-tip countries have many restaurants. The prices are also much higher. I've traveled extensively around Europe and places that have no tips..and the meal price is much higher.
Mindless2112 7y ago
Tipping needs to go. It's discriminatory and a PITA. But I think the only way we'll get rid of it is if it's made illegal.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  That's impossible. People's freedom to give other people money on their own volition as a personal gift will not be infringed. We can argue about whether tipping is good or not, but you will not (realistically, it's a non-starter) ban my ability to give it.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    Tried tipping a police officer lately? How about a border guard haha. You absolutely can restrict it. An employer can forbid their employees from taking tips, there are plenty who do so already. There's all sorts of regulation around tipping, and under federal law, employers can require employees to participate in a tip pool or otherwise share their tips with other employees. That means by extension that the state or federal governments can require employers forbid employees from taking tips. You're free to give anyone you want money in a personal capacity but in a professional capacity their ability to receive it can absolutely be curtailed by the government. There's lots of prior art here, especially around business conflict of interest. You can't tip a government employee for their service. As a thought exercise, if you go to a restaurant today where tipping isn't permitted, you offer $10 to the server. They refuse, because their employer doesn't permit them to accept tips. What do you do? Force them to take it?
    - glofish 7y ago
      This is a false analogy. You can choose to go to a different restaurant, you can't choose to deal with another government. Hence the rules should be different. The rules and regulations of a governmental agency do not need to have any bearing on the rules and regulations of a private business.
      - 7y ago
gamesbrainiac 7y ago
This also made no sense to me when I visited the US. If you don't tip, people are going to be seriously mad at you. Living in Europe, you never tip. You just pay for your meal, and you call it a day.
- svara 7y ago
  Where in Europe are you talking about? Here in Germany, and everywhere I've traveled so far, tipping is expected. You just tip less than in the US. I guess you could not tip, but your server will be miffed and assume something was wrong with the food or service.
  - kimi 7y ago
    In continental Europe there is no tipping. Yes, if you leave a tip they sure won't mind (and they maybe kind of expect it from tourists in tourist traps), but there is no obligation.
    - kaffeemitsahne 7y ago
      "no obligation" is not the same as "no tipping", and certainly not "you never tip", as GP claimed. FWIW I certainly feel the obligation to leave a small tip (few euros) when eating out, but that may just be my upbringing.
  - hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
    In France basically there is no tipping. I tipped because I'm American and force of habit, but it certainly wasn't expected. I don't ever recall seeing a tip line when paying by credit card.
    - svara 7y ago
      Like the comment above pointed out, no obligation to tip doesn't mean it's not poor form not to. I'm German and I always tip unless the service was really bad. I'm not the only one. [0] Quick Googling confirms this is true in France as well (96% of customers usually tip according to that link) [1]. [0] https://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article177457710/Wie-viel-Trinkgeld-geben-Deutsche-im-Restaurant.html https://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article177457710/... [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/paris-ile-de-france/paris/pourboire-ce-qui-se-fait-ce-qui-ne-se-fait-pas-france-ailleurs-1314391.amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr...
galkk 7y ago
I haven't used Lyft for a while due to the fact that it had tip request - I've used Uber extensively, because it didn't asked for tips.
- HenryBemis 7y ago
  Uber in Europe does ask for s tip, buy also gives the option to leave none.
poisonborz 7y ago
There is no system for tipping that makes sense. It's a bad social construct, just plain harmful from every angle. Let's abolish it.
- weberc2 7y ago
  I’m fine with the notion of tipping as a reward for extraordinary service, but it absolutely shouldn’t be part of a standard compensation package and especially not considered as part of a minimum wage requirement.
  - glofish 7y ago
    A well-intentioned misconception at work here. Really ... in what other circumstance would you ever reward an "extraordinary" accomplishment with a mere 15-20% bonus. What extraordinary thing costs just 15% more than the regular, run of the mill normal thing.
    - weberc2 7y ago
      You might be right, and I think it makes for interesting introspection. For me, it’s not necessarily a policy grounded in rigorous economic philosophy. Rather, someone—a person with thoughts and feelings—just went the extra mile to serve me and give me a pleasant experience, and I want to give them a token of appreciation in return. It’s participation in humanity for me, rightly or wrongly. Maybe I would also tip the software engineer (who went above and beyond to ensure the product I bought was well-crafted) if only I had some direct contact with him or her?
- gojomo 7y ago
  That's 3 assertions without evidence/reasoning, and then a stated preferred course-of-action. Here's the same in the opposite direction: "Lots of tipping systems make sense. It's a good social construct, and beneficial from every angle. Let's expand it." Both formulations are just longwinded ways to say "I dislike tipping" or "I like tipping", without adding anything for people trying to form an opinion on the merits.
hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
Feels like we have these tipping articles every two or three months now. 1. Yes, tipping in the US is insane, and it's getting more insane with iPad tipping. 2. No, it's not ever going to go away in the US. There are many, many stories of restaurants that tried to go no-tip (and crowed about it) but eventually had to go back to tipping because (a) the best servers prefer tipping and (b) people will judge you more expensive, even if you're not compared to their price+tip. 3. If you are a highly paid professional living in a major US city, you should tip and tip generously (assuming normal or better service). At the end of the day the difference to you is a miniscule, teeny amount of your salary, but for the server, barista or cashier receiving the tip it's a huge difference.
- bluejekyll 7y ago
  Even if the service isn’t great, b/c tipping is baked into their total compensation, is argue that you should always tip. Only changes the amounts that you tip by.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    The thing that's crazy is you hear a lot of people talking about "what's the incentive to provide good services if employees aren't motivated by tips" -- which is it? Either we've accepted it's a "fuel surcharge" for an airline ticket (as if the fuel isn't part of the price and I'm free to grab my own dishes from the kitchen) -- or it's meant to incentivize behavior. If we pick both, we're not really achieving either.
    - bluejekyll 7y ago
      I wrote a very incoherent sentence there. What restaurants have done is offload the risk of customers coming in to the establishment on to the employee by not paying them a full wage. This is fine in high throughput places, maybe, but many other places it means service workers are making below minimum wage. So yes, always tip, and tip more if you liked the service.
- luckydata 7y ago
gojomo 7y ago
Thompson quotes the Uber study showing that ride quality/service does affect tip rates (after other stronger factors) – but then claims the study shows the opposite! For tipping to be a useful feedback mechanism for the quality/service dimension, quality/service doesn't have to be the strongest, or among the strongest, factors determining the tip size. Just a factor. And given that all of the other factors mentioned (like demographics of driver/rider, rider habits, location/duration of ride, etc) are fully determined once a ride is matched, it appears that quality/service is the single influenceable contributor to tip size. So, contra Thompson, it is absolutely the case that, once all the non-controllable factors are fixed, the remaining differential in tip size is a reward for excellent service.
- ilkan 7y ago
  The meaning of non-controllable is "can't be fixed". “The quality of the drive does seem to affect the tip,” List said. “It just matters way less than all these [other] factors.”
throwawayuuuu5 7y ago
I like tipping my barber. His skill and care makes a substantial difference on the outcome. This feels like an appropriate place for tipping.
- luckydata 7y ago
  Doesn't the barber set his own rates?
- n4r9 7y ago
  If he's skilled and careful then why doesn't he charge in line with his value?
  - throwawayuuuu5 7y ago
    The barber dishes out haircuts with average utility of X, where the average price for a X utils of haircutting is Y. I personally receive more than X utils from this guy’s haircuts. As a courtesy to compensate the additional value that I personally receive from him, which would not be fungible to a randomly chosen barber of equal skill based on anecdata, I provide a tip.
    - n4r9 7y ago
      Hmm, I sort of get why you do it but it still seems weird that the amount of tip should factor in the original cost. It's almost like you're insinuating that people should pay what they estimate the value of something to be to themselves, rather than what it's offered at. I don't go on ebay to buy something and then send extra cash to the seller just because that thing was extra valuable to me. Like most people I look for the best price I can find and then decide if its low enough.
glofish 7y ago
Having traveled extensively in Europe I will say that I came to believe that the American wait staff is more attentive, more courteous and more friendly by large margins. I am talking casual dining here, Applebee, TGI Friday, etc level of restaurants where you get a decent sample size across many locations. European restaurants just charge you an arm and leg for water - 300ml - that will be 3 euros, refill ... pff, cough up another 3 euros! There is your "tip" built into that overpriced water, right there. Thus I find these types of articles quite unconvincing, where all personal empirical evidence says different
- Symbiote 7y ago
  You need to travel a bit more in Europe, then you can understand that many Europeans find the overattentiveness and simpering friendliness of American waiters shallow and insincere. You will also find that whether tap water is free or not varies between (and sometimes within) countries.
  - glofish 7y ago
    Really, your problem is over attentiveness? That someone comes over a few times to ask you if you something? What I found immensely insincere and fake is exactly the European style. There is this pomp, where initially the waiter is expected almost humiliate themselves, seems like the customer expects to be treated you like royalty, but in fact the waiter is sick and tired of another "royalty" bossing them around, getting nothing for good service, and will screw you over at their first opportunity In the US the waiter fakes that they are your friend In Europe the waiter fakes that they are your servant
    - eesmith 7y ago
      Guidebooks point out that European restaurant culture is different than the US one. (Speaking broadly, of course.) I'll pull examples from https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/food-drink/restaurant-culture-europe-vs-united-states https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/food-drink/res... . The European view is that going to dinner is a leisurely affair, which can take hours, and is part of socializing. ("A Norwegian friend explained that many Norwegians have small homes and use restaurants for entertaining. It's eat and talk, not eat and run.") While to Europeans, the US culture seems more like one of turning tables to get more customers through. "I've had to explain to Americans that the service in Europe isn't bad when the server isn't hovering over you. They think it's rude to rush you!" "My husband and I love the European restaurant culture. When we’re back in the USA after a trip, my husband gets annoyed with the habit of some restaurants where three different people will stop by the table to ask if everything’s fine, followed by the quick bill with a “no hurry”. But, everyone knows they want people to leave for a couple more table turns." So, what you see as "attentiveness", other see as pressure to get them out. Culture's odd like that. I grew up in the US South saying ma'am and sir to anyone over about the age of 10. Then I moved to California, and was chided for using "ma'am" to someone. It wasn't that she had a problem with politeness, it was the cultural context changed, so my polite wasn't her polite.
BrandoElFollito 7y ago
From what I read, this is stealing from the customer by everyone. The owner is happy to pay less. The waiter is happy to get tax free money. Since nr_customers >> (nr_owners + nr_waiters) I have zero empathy towards anybody in this wicked system. But I still tip when in the US because peer pressure, and I am there only once every few years.
glofish 7y ago
Tipping is something completely different. I have come to believe that in America tipping is to recognize acceptable service. It is a feedback mechanism to weed out, to mark and penalize undesirable behaviors. The best people to make that determination are the customers themselves. The only time you should not tip is when the service is bad. Do understand that if we did not tip the prices would simply rise, we would still pay the same as with tipping, but it would take away a mechanism by which you can make ourselves heard.
- ilkan 7y ago
  Imagine if every coder was paid below minimum wage and depended on tips in every paycheck... it assumes a default that the employee needs a daily threat of punishment from moody strangers to do acceptable work. Not a fun environment.
  - glofish 7y ago
    it is not a good analogy, you can't immediately tell that a piece of code is good or bad. If you could tell that in 10 minutes, if you could separate a good coder from bad just like that, tipping would improve coding as well. Tipping is not about moody strangers, the vast majority of people eating at restaurants are normal people with normal, predictable and reasonably benevolent behaviors. People will tip if the service is at least average. Won't tip when the service or food is bad. What better way is there to tell how your business is doing? As many others in this thread pointed out, both waiters and customers like tipping. The minority that hates it has various misconceptions about both how it works, what it does to salaries etc read a few very salient replies in this thread.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  What I find interesting about these discussions is the servers side is unrepresented as if it's unimportant. I've come around to the idea that the majority of servers like tipping. And most patrons also like tipping. But there is a minority that finds the arrangement somehow transgressive to how they perceive the power structure. The server is supposed to be at the bottom of the totem pole and yet here they are expecting me to hand them some money.
RickJWagner 7y ago
I don't mind tipping, especially if I feel the server did a good job. (Not even exceptional. Just 'good'.) But I am a little concerned about 'tip inflation'. I am just now comfortable going over 10% (with it's easy math), and it seems 15% and even 18% are fading quickly into the past. I'm not wild about paying 20% or more as a tip, it feels like I'm being gouged.
danieltillett 7y ago
I have often wondered if the solution is to tip the manager/owner of the business and let them distribute the tip (or not) as they see fit. Ultimately tipping or not tipping will be built into the overall cost of the meal so why not give the money directly to the person with the greatest ability to optimise the dining experience.

61 points by flurdy 7y ago

"By outsourcing compensation to consumers, companies can pay their employees less" They pay their employees less because otherwise, they won't be able to stay in business without radically raising their prices. I wonder if the same people that want to get rid of our tipping system would be willing to pay double the price for breakfast?

skinnymuch 7y ago
Why would breakfast be double the price? Wouldn’t that mean tipping on avg is more than the meal price?
- Spooky23 7y ago
  Because everyone in the restaurant industry systematically underestimates tip income. It’s a pretty corrupt industry by modern standards. Waitstaff would get paid way more and the employer would actually have to pay taxes at value. Prices wouldn’t double at most places, but some waiters at high volume or expensive restaurants make a lot of money, and factoring those wages would be tough on cash flow.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- social_quotient 7y ago
  If tips are gone then the wage would be regulated higher by the business (read as “should”). Seemingly it would just absorb the 15-30% tip amounts but a lot of places would have to account better for the time when things are slow. Instead of the server burdening there slow sales (driver of the tip) the business would have to guarantee the wage. It takes the employee out of the opportunistic approach that tipping seems to suggest. The same happens when you take commissions away. The sales staff now wants a higher equilibrium to account for the lack of an upside. I can’t say double is the right number but I’m sure it’s higher than just the effective 15-30% tip.
  - happytoexplain 7y ago
    >15-30% Isn't 15-20% the effective standard range in the US for restaurants?
    - skinnymuch 7y ago
      Yeah. 30% is pretty high to give.
- planetzero 7y ago
  Full time employees will now cost much more to the employer: taxes, health care, benefits, a higher wage (the wage of a waiter is usually much lower than the standard minimum wage). All these costs add up and the result will be a much higher end cost for your meals. Restaurants usually have razor thin margins as it is...if they even make it past their first couple of years in business. Again, I feel like most people complain about the wages, but will then complain about the meal costs when they go up because they misunderstand the costs in running a business. I know many waiters and waitresses and most make way more in tips than they would ever get if they were paid an average wage. I think if you talked to most waiters/waitresses, they would want to keep the tipping system.
  - skinnymuch 7y ago
    Why would you have to provide benefits just because someone is full time? Vast majority of food service places aren’t huge operations. Whatever regulation rules force benefits for employees certainly don’t apply to a restaurant with 1 or 2 dozen total employees. Here you seem to know businesses will do what they want if they can get away with it when it comes to employment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21308309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21308309. In that example you’d probably agree benefits don’t need to suddenly happen if a business can get away with it.
ako 7y ago
If you pay for it by paying a higher price, or by tipping, doesn't really matter for the customer. This is just a scheme to circumvent paying social security and tax costs.
dawnerd 7y ago
15-20% is not double or radical. I would gladly pay that much more if I didn’t have to tip.
- glofish 7y ago
  I don't get it - if you are fine paying the exact same amount why does it bother you to add that as a tip? I can understand people that say that the cost of meals are in fact misrepresented because you are expected to tip. But if that is not factor I don't see what makes it so unbearable to add 20%
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    Tax is paid, and there's no longer unfair discrimination due to age or sex appeal of the waiter.
  - happytoexplain 7y ago
    It sounds like you're under the impression that people dislike tipping because they feel they're paying "more", but the parent post wouldn't make sense in that context.
    - glofish 7y ago
      I am fairly sure that most people don't like tipping they feel that you are being "coerced" to pay more. If the tipping would be about paying less (i.e. you may reduce this bill 20% if you did not like the service) do you honestly think anyone would complain?
      - skinnymuch 7y ago
        Your second paragraph doesn’t have to do with your first. Your second is asking if people want to get more for less. That would be true in many other examples too. I’d be curious about the first assumption. I also assumed what OP did. Tipping is annoying for me. I’d rather it just be included everywhere. I don’t like having to think about tipping. I feel like youtube comments are the sort of place I’d see a lot of people think they would actually save 20% from no tipping being a universal thing. The system is great right now if you want to save money. If you’re not going to a place again in the next year. Tipping will not benefit or hurt you in any way since you’re skipping the tip at the end. And if you don’t care about the server’s financial well being, then this won’t matter to you.
galkk 7y ago
Assuming typical 15%-20% tip, from where comes the double price for the breakfast?
llampx 7y ago
I've lived in the US, and now live in Germany. Sit-down breakfast is often cheaper here than the States, and you don't have to leave 20% as a tip. The only thing that I've run into is that water is not free. And that "service with a smile" doesn't really exist here as an ethos. You receive the same dour service no matter how much you pay.
pkaye 7y ago
So the choice is 15-20% tip or double the price? That doesn't add up.
michaelmrose 7y ago
It would be more constructive if you would apply mathematical reasoning to your post and come back.
ilkan 7y ago
a) That's not a business, it's a bait-and-switch scam. b) Non-tip countries have many restaurants.
- planetzero 7y ago
  a) so something you know is the switch for the past 50 years or more is somehow bait and switch? b) Of course non-tip countries have many restaurants. The prices are also much higher. I've traveled extensively around Europe and places that have no tips..and the meal price is much higher.

Mindless2112 7y ago

Tipping needs to go. It's discriminatory and a PITA. But I think the only way we'll get rid of it is if it's made illegal.

Aperocky 7y ago
That's impossible. People's freedom to give other people money on their own volition as a personal gift will not be infringed. We can argue about whether tipping is good or not, but you will not (realistically, it's a non-starter) ban my ability to give it.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  Tried tipping a police officer lately? How about a border guard haha. You absolutely can restrict it. An employer can forbid their employees from taking tips, there are plenty who do so already. There's all sorts of regulation around tipping, and under federal law, employers can require employees to participate in a tip pool or otherwise share their tips with other employees. That means by extension that the state or federal governments can require employers forbid employees from taking tips. You're free to give anyone you want money in a personal capacity but in a professional capacity their ability to receive it can absolutely be curtailed by the government. There's lots of prior art here, especially around business conflict of interest. You can't tip a government employee for their service. As a thought exercise, if you go to a restaurant today where tipping isn't permitted, you offer $10 to the server. They refuse, because their employer doesn't permit them to accept tips. What do you do? Force them to take it?
  - glofish 7y ago
    This is a false analogy. You can choose to go to a different restaurant, you can't choose to deal with another government. Hence the rules should be different. The rules and regulations of a governmental agency do not need to have any bearing on the rules and regulations of a private business.
    - 7y ago

gamesbrainiac 7y ago

This also made no sense to me when I visited the US. If you don't tip, people are going to be seriously mad at you. Living in Europe, you never tip. You just pay for your meal, and you call it a day.

svara 7y ago
Where in Europe are you talking about? Here in Germany, and everywhere I've traveled so far, tipping is expected. You just tip less than in the US. I guess you could not tip, but your server will be miffed and assume something was wrong with the food or service.
- kimi 7y ago
  In continental Europe there is no tipping. Yes, if you leave a tip they sure won't mind (and they maybe kind of expect it from tourists in tourist traps), but there is no obligation.
  - kaffeemitsahne 7y ago
    "no obligation" is not the same as "no tipping", and certainly not "you never tip", as GP claimed. FWIW I certainly feel the obligation to leave a small tip (few euros) when eating out, but that may just be my upbringing.
- hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
  In France basically there is no tipping. I tipped because I'm American and force of habit, but it certainly wasn't expected. I don't ever recall seeing a tip line when paying by credit card.
  - svara 7y ago
    Like the comment above pointed out, no obligation to tip doesn't mean it's not poor form not to. I'm German and I always tip unless the service was really bad. I'm not the only one. [0] Quick Googling confirms this is true in France as well (96% of customers usually tip according to that link) [1]. [0] https://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article177457710/Wie-viel-Trinkgeld-geben-Deutsche-im-Restaurant.html https://www.welt.de/gesundheit/psychologie/article177457710/... [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/paris-ile-de-france/paris/pourboire-ce-qui-se-fait-ce-qui-ne-se-fait-pas-france-ailleurs-1314391.amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr...

galkk 7y ago

I haven't used Lyft for a while due to the fact that it had tip request - I've used Uber extensively, because it didn't asked for tips.

HenryBemis 7y ago
Uber in Europe does ask for s tip, buy also gives the option to leave none.

poisonborz 7y ago

There is no system for tipping that makes sense. It's a bad social construct, just plain harmful from every angle. Let's abolish it.

weberc2 7y ago
I’m fine with the notion of tipping as a reward for extraordinary service, but it absolutely shouldn’t be part of a standard compensation package and especially not considered as part of a minimum wage requirement.
- glofish 7y ago
  A well-intentioned misconception at work here. Really ... in what other circumstance would you ever reward an "extraordinary" accomplishment with a mere 15-20% bonus. What extraordinary thing costs just 15% more than the regular, run of the mill normal thing.
  - weberc2 7y ago
    You might be right, and I think it makes for interesting introspection. For me, it’s not necessarily a policy grounded in rigorous economic philosophy. Rather, someone—a person with thoughts and feelings—just went the extra mile to serve me and give me a pleasant experience, and I want to give them a token of appreciation in return. It’s participation in humanity for me, rightly or wrongly. Maybe I would also tip the software engineer (who went above and beyond to ensure the product I bought was well-crafted) if only I had some direct contact with him or her?
gojomo 7y ago
That's 3 assertions without evidence/reasoning, and then a stated preferred course-of-action. Here's the same in the opposite direction: "Lots of tipping systems make sense. It's a good social construct, and beneficial from every angle. Let's expand it." Both formulations are just longwinded ways to say "I dislike tipping" or "I like tipping", without adding anything for people trying to form an opinion on the merits.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago

Feels like we have these tipping articles every two or three months now. 1. Yes, tipping in the US is insane, and it's getting more insane with iPad tipping. 2. No, it's not ever going to go away in the US. There are many, many stories of restaurants that tried to go no-tip (and crowed about it) but eventually had to go back to tipping because (a) the best servers prefer tipping and (b) people will judge you more expensive, even if you're not compared to their price+tip. 3. If you are a highly paid professional living in a major US city, you should tip and tip generously (assuming normal or better service). At the end of the day the difference to you is a miniscule, teeny amount of your salary, but for the server, barista or cashier receiving the tip it's a huge difference.

bluejekyll 7y ago
Even if the service isn’t great, b/c tipping is baked into their total compensation, is argue that you should always tip. Only changes the amounts that you tip by.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  The thing that's crazy is you hear a lot of people talking about "what's the incentive to provide good services if employees aren't motivated by tips" -- which is it? Either we've accepted it's a "fuel surcharge" for an airline ticket (as if the fuel isn't part of the price and I'm free to grab my own dishes from the kitchen) -- or it's meant to incentivize behavior. If we pick both, we're not really achieving either.
  - bluejekyll 7y ago
    I wrote a very incoherent sentence there. What restaurants have done is offload the risk of customers coming in to the establishment on to the employee by not paying them a full wage. This is fine in high throughput places, maybe, but many other places it means service workers are making below minimum wage. So yes, always tip, and tip more if you liked the service.
luckydata 7y ago

gojomo 7y ago

Thompson quotes the Uber study showing that ride quality/service does affect tip rates (after other stronger factors) – but then claims the study shows the opposite! For tipping to be a useful feedback mechanism for the quality/service dimension, quality/service doesn't have to be the strongest, or among the strongest, factors determining the tip size. Just a factor. And given that all of the other factors mentioned (like demographics of driver/rider, rider habits, location/duration of ride, etc) are fully determined once a ride is matched, it appears that quality/service is the single influenceable contributor to tip size. So, contra Thompson, it is absolutely the case that, once all the non-controllable factors are fixed, the remaining differential in tip size is a reward for excellent service.

ilkan 7y ago
The meaning of non-controllable is "can't be fixed". “The quality of the drive does seem to affect the tip,” List said. “It just matters way less than all these [other] factors.”

throwawayuuuu5 7y ago

I like tipping my barber. His skill and care makes a substantial difference on the outcome. This feels like an appropriate place for tipping.

luckydata 7y ago
Doesn't the barber set his own rates?
n4r9 7y ago
If he's skilled and careful then why doesn't he charge in line with his value?
- throwawayuuuu5 7y ago
  The barber dishes out haircuts with average utility of X, where the average price for a X utils of haircutting is Y. I personally receive more than X utils from this guy’s haircuts. As a courtesy to compensate the additional value that I personally receive from him, which would not be fungible to a randomly chosen barber of equal skill based on anecdata, I provide a tip.
  - n4r9 7y ago
    Hmm, I sort of get why you do it but it still seems weird that the amount of tip should factor in the original cost. It's almost like you're insinuating that people should pay what they estimate the value of something to be to themselves, rather than what it's offered at. I don't go on ebay to buy something and then send extra cash to the seller just because that thing was extra valuable to me. Like most people I look for the best price I can find and then decide if its low enough.

glofish 7y ago

Having traveled extensively in Europe I will say that I came to believe that the American wait staff is more attentive, more courteous and more friendly by large margins. I am talking casual dining here, Applebee, TGI Friday, etc level of restaurants where you get a decent sample size across many locations. European restaurants just charge you an arm and leg for water - 300ml - that will be 3 euros, refill ... pff, cough up another 3 euros! There is your "tip" built into that overpriced water, right there. Thus I find these types of articles quite unconvincing, where all personal empirical evidence says different

Symbiote 7y ago
You need to travel a bit more in Europe, then you can understand that many Europeans find the overattentiveness and simpering friendliness of American waiters shallow and insincere. You will also find that whether tap water is free or not varies between (and sometimes within) countries.
- glofish 7y ago
  Really, your problem is over attentiveness? That someone comes over a few times to ask you if you something? What I found immensely insincere and fake is exactly the European style. There is this pomp, where initially the waiter is expected almost humiliate themselves, seems like the customer expects to be treated you like royalty, but in fact the waiter is sick and tired of another "royalty" bossing them around, getting nothing for good service, and will screw you over at their first opportunity In the US the waiter fakes that they are your friend In Europe the waiter fakes that they are your servant
  - eesmith 7y ago
    Guidebooks point out that European restaurant culture is different than the US one. (Speaking broadly, of course.) I'll pull examples from https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/food-drink/restaurant-culture-europe-vs-united-states https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/food-drink/res... . The European view is that going to dinner is a leisurely affair, which can take hours, and is part of socializing. ("A Norwegian friend explained that many Norwegians have small homes and use restaurants for entertaining. It's eat and talk, not eat and run.") While to Europeans, the US culture seems more like one of turning tables to get more customers through. "I've had to explain to Americans that the service in Europe isn't bad when the server isn't hovering over you. They think it's rude to rush you!" "My husband and I love the European restaurant culture. When we’re back in the USA after a trip, my husband gets annoyed with the habit of some restaurants where three different people will stop by the table to ask if everything’s fine, followed by the quick bill with a “no hurry”. But, everyone knows they want people to leave for a couple more table turns." So, what you see as "attentiveness", other see as pressure to get them out. Culture's odd like that. I grew up in the US South saying ma'am and sir to anyone over about the age of 10. Then I moved to California, and was chided for using "ma'am" to someone. It wasn't that she had a problem with politeness, it was the cultural context changed, so my polite wasn't her polite.

BrandoElFollito 7y ago

From what I read, this is stealing from the customer by everyone. The owner is happy to pay less. The waiter is happy to get tax free money. Since nr_customers >> (nr_owners + nr_waiters) I have zero empathy towards anybody in this wicked system. But I still tip when in the US because peer pressure, and I am there only once every few years.

glofish 7y ago

Tipping is something completely different. I have come to believe that in America tipping is to recognize acceptable service. It is a feedback mechanism to weed out, to mark and penalize undesirable behaviors. The best people to make that determination are the customers themselves. The only time you should not tip is when the service is bad. Do understand that if we did not tip the prices would simply rise, we would still pay the same as with tipping, but it would take away a mechanism by which you can make ourselves heard.

ilkan 7y ago
Imagine if every coder was paid below minimum wage and depended on tips in every paycheck... it assumes a default that the employee needs a daily threat of punishment from moody strangers to do acceptable work. Not a fun environment.
- glofish 7y ago
  it is not a good analogy, you can't immediately tell that a piece of code is good or bad. If you could tell that in 10 minutes, if you could separate a good coder from bad just like that, tipping would improve coding as well. Tipping is not about moody strangers, the vast majority of people eating at restaurants are normal people with normal, predictable and reasonably benevolent behaviors. People will tip if the service is at least average. Won't tip when the service or food is bad. What better way is there to tell how your business is doing? As many others in this thread pointed out, both waiters and customers like tipping. The minority that hates it has various misconceptions about both how it works, what it does to salaries etc read a few very salient replies in this thread.
Gibbon1 7y ago
What I find interesting about these discussions is the servers side is unrepresented as if it's unimportant. I've come around to the idea that the majority of servers like tipping. And most patrons also like tipping. But there is a minority that finds the arrangement somehow transgressive to how they perceive the power structure. The server is supposed to be at the bottom of the totem pole and yet here they are expecting me to hand them some money.

RickJWagner 7y ago

I don't mind tipping, especially if I feel the server did a good job. (Not even exceptional. Just 'good'.) But I am a little concerned about 'tip inflation'. I am just now comfortable going over 10% (with it's easy math), and it seems 15% and even 18% are fading quickly into the past. I'm not wild about paying 20% or more as a tip, it feels like I'm being gouged.

danieltillett 7y ago

I have often wondered if the solution is to tip the manager/owner of the business and let them distribute the tip (or not) as they see fit. Ultimately tipping or not tipping will be built into the overall cost of the meal so why not give the money directly to the person with the greatest ability to optimise the dining experience.