5 ms·

Where in Europe are you talking about? The majority of immigrants in any EU country come from other EU countries. Of the remainder, less than 10% arrived as r

by derriz 7y ago

Where in Europe are you talking about? The majority of immigrants in any EU country come from other EU countries. Of the remainder, less than 10% arrived as refugees. The vast majority of refugees (over 90% I’d guess) are documented and those from Syria or North Africa constitute only a fraction of all refugees. The average European is highly highly unlikely to have ever encountered an undocumented refugee from Syria or North Africa.

cc81 7y ago
There are not as many as for example southern US but there are illegal immigrants. Usually people who smuggle themselves here but fail to get asylum but goes underground and works shitty jobs for very shitty pay. Or keep away to try to seek asylum again after some time. You also have those that are in limbo as for example there are several countries that are not taking back their citizens if they are forced there. Afghanistan used to be one of those countries for Sweden so even if someone got a no on their asylum application they could still just say no and stay. However now Sweden has a deal with Afghanistan so people who are not leaving willingly are put on chartered planes down there. Then there are those internally within EU like beggars who are officially not allowed to stay as long as they do but no one is checking of course.
derriz 7y ago
Don’t understand the downvotes. If anyone has any references to there being a large number of undocumented immigrants in Europe, I’d be glad to be corrected. Most of Europe is very different to the US in this regard. Without being legal/registered, you’ve no chance of getting the equivalent of an SSN, drivers license, opening a bank account, leasing an apartment or in some cases even buy a mobile phone. Consequently, the number of undocumented immigrants is minuscule. I get the impression that in the US it mightn’t be unusual for the average citizen to encounter undocumented immigrant gardeners, nannies, etc. - this almost never happens in Europe.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Well based on media discussion of a current major UK story - that 39 immigrants died in a refrigerated lorry, it's spawned a lot of stories into illegal immigration and why 39 people were trying to get to the UK. Police are currently investigating the lorry having been one of a convoy of three - so potentially around 100. One of the reports, that I can't find again, I think someone at Rotterdam port discussing that some unbelievably low percentage of trucks are checked properly in the major EU ports, and few even have capability to check for presence of people. Just a check that seals are intact, papers are right, and a camera to see passing vehicles. So it's probable that many Europeans could have encountered illegal immigrants without realising. The common point is there a selection of low pay service jobs that attract illegal immigrants, who then become trapped. Some by debt and threats to family, and other more direct slavery. Anti-trafficking and similar groups have been warning of issues for years, and mostly ignored. It remains a truth that the vast majority of immigration in Europe is legal, but there is a significant level of illegal migration. Thanks to the free movement of peoples within the EU, it is far harder to detect than before those border checks were pulled down. Here is just one of a selection of pieces that have come up this week across all the press: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/oct/25/trafficked-vietnamese-and-the-lure-of-uk-nail-bars-and-cannabis-farms https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/oct/25/trafficked-vietn...
ivanhoe 7y ago
Sorry, but you have no clue how many undocumented immigrants are all around you. Just because most of them are white you don't notice them in streets and they work shitty and hard jobs so you don't meet them either... I personally know like a dozen guys from Serbia and Bosnia who live in Austria and Germany illegally, and that's a dime a dozen. Us, Albanians and Turks are for EU what Mexicans are for US...
- derriz 7y ago
  Sorry but an anecdote about your personal experience isn't very convincing. What would be convincing would be a reference to a source with numbers/data to back up your claim. The most recent Europe-wide figures are pretty out-of-date but indicate estimates of between 0.3% and 0.7% of people living in Eureope being irregular/undocumented (http://irregular-migration.net http://irregular-migration.net). This is much less than the comparable estimates for the US, for example.
  - ivanhoe 7y ago
    I never claimed there's more illegal immigrants in the EU than in US. I said that there's more immigrants than it is maybe perceived by most, especially tourists. For instance in Austria more than 20% of population are legal immigrants. In Switzerland it's more than 30%. About half of them come from other EU countries, and most of them are concentrated in big cities. [1] Regarding the illegal immigration situation in EU is very different from US because the laws are different. In EU state helps immigrants so they're incentivized to register, and also it's easier to get permits. According to the official DHS report [2]: "Of the total illegal alien population in 2015, nearly 80 percent had resided within the United States for more than 10 years", which is super uncommon in EU, they'd be legalized by that time. So just comparing the numbers doesn't tell the true story, but according to the official report from Austria [3]: "Irregular residents account for between 2.9% and 1.1% of the total population.", so 10x more what you suggested. They also note in this report: "As there are strong incentives for immigrants to register in Austria (e.g. certificate of registration as a prerequisite for application for state benefits), the majority of immigrants are on record at the registration offices. In contrast, very little information is available about irregular immigration." And Austria is one of the stricter countries in this regard. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/pdfscache/1275.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/pdfscache... [2] https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/18_1214_PLCY_pops-est-report.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/18_1214... [3] https://bmi.gv.at/Downloads/files/Bericht_des_Migrationsrats_PDF_komplett_ENG_23_3_17.pdf https://bmi.gv.at/Downloads/files/Bericht_des_Migrationsrats...
angry_octet 7y ago
Well I know from personal experience that Sweden and Germany have lots of migrants from there, as well as France and Italy of course. They tend to be official refugees in the northern countries, but there are many undocumented, and also from the East. It is also notorious that countries will shuffle undesirables to another country, e.g. sending Africans back to Italy, sending Roma anywhere else.

by derriz 7y ago

cc81 7y ago

There are not as many as for example southern US but there are illegal immigrants. Usually people who smuggle themselves here but fail to get asylum but goes underground and works shitty jobs for very shitty pay. Or keep away to try to seek asylum again after some time. You also have those that are in limbo as for example there are several countries that are not taking back their citizens if they are forced there. Afghanistan used to be one of those countries for Sweden so even if someone got a no on their asylum application they could still just say no and stay. However now Sweden has a deal with Afghanistan so people who are not leaving willingly are put on chartered planes down there. Then there are those internally within EU like beggars who are officially not allowed to stay as long as they do but no one is checking of course.

derriz 7y ago

Don’t understand the downvotes. If anyone has any references to there being a large number of undocumented immigrants in Europe, I’d be glad to be corrected. Most of Europe is very different to the US in this regard. Without being legal/registered, you’ve no chance of getting the equivalent of an SSN, drivers license, opening a bank account, leasing an apartment or in some cases even buy a mobile phone. Consequently, the number of undocumented immigrants is minuscule. I get the impression that in the US it mightn’t be unusual for the average citizen to encounter undocumented immigrant gardeners, nannies, etc. - this almost never happens in Europe.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Well based on media discussion of a current major UK story - that 39 immigrants died in a refrigerated lorry, it's spawned a lot of stories into illegal immigration and why 39 people were trying to get to the UK. Police are currently investigating the lorry having been one of a convoy of three - so potentially around 100. One of the reports, that I can't find again, I think someone at Rotterdam port discussing that some unbelievably low percentage of trucks are checked properly in the major EU ports, and few even have capability to check for presence of people. Just a check that seals are intact, papers are right, and a camera to see passing vehicles. So it's probable that many Europeans could have encountered illegal immigrants without realising. The common point is there a selection of low pay service jobs that attract illegal immigrants, who then become trapped. Some by debt and threats to family, and other more direct slavery. Anti-trafficking and similar groups have been warning of issues for years, and mostly ignored. It remains a truth that the vast majority of immigration in Europe is legal, but there is a significant level of illegal migration. Thanks to the free movement of peoples within the EU, it is far harder to detect than before those border checks were pulled down. Here is just one of a selection of pieces that have come up this week across all the press: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/oct/25/trafficked-vietnamese-and-the-lure-of-uk-nail-bars-and-cannabis-farms https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/oct/25/trafficked-vietn...

ivanhoe 7y ago

Sorry, but you have no clue how many undocumented immigrants are all around you. Just because most of them are white you don't notice them in streets and they work shitty and hard jobs so you don't meet them either... I personally know like a dozen guys from Serbia and Bosnia who live in Austria and Germany illegally, and that's a dime a dozen. Us, Albanians and Turks are for EU what Mexicans are for US...

derriz 7y ago
Sorry but an anecdote about your personal experience isn't very convincing. What would be convincing would be a reference to a source with numbers/data to back up your claim. The most recent Europe-wide figures are pretty out-of-date but indicate estimates of between 0.3% and 0.7% of people living in Eureope being irregular/undocumented (http://irregular-migration.net http://irregular-migration.net). This is much less than the comparable estimates for the US, for example.
- ivanhoe 7y ago
  I never claimed there's more illegal immigrants in the EU than in US. I said that there's more immigrants than it is maybe perceived by most, especially tourists. For instance in Austria more than 20% of population are legal immigrants. In Switzerland it's more than 30%. About half of them come from other EU countries, and most of them are concentrated in big cities. [1] Regarding the illegal immigration situation in EU is very different from US because the laws are different. In EU state helps immigrants so they're incentivized to register, and also it's easier to get permits. According to the official DHS report [2]: "Of the total illegal alien population in 2015, nearly 80 percent had resided within the United States for more than 10 years", which is super uncommon in EU, they'd be legalized by that time. So just comparing the numbers doesn't tell the true story, but according to the official report from Austria [3]: "Irregular residents account for between 2.9% and 1.1% of the total population.", so 10x more what you suggested. They also note in this report: "As there are strong incentives for immigrants to register in Austria (e.g. certificate of registration as a prerequisite for application for state benefits), the majority of immigrants are on record at the registration offices. In contrast, very little information is available about irregular immigration." And Austria is one of the stricter countries in this regard. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/pdfscache/1275.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/pdfscache... [2] https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/18_1214_PLCY_pops-est-report.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/18_1214... [3] https://bmi.gv.at/Downloads/files/Bericht_des_Migrationsrats_PDF_komplett_ENG_23_3_17.pdf https://bmi.gv.at/Downloads/files/Bericht_des_Migrationsrats...

angry_octet 7y ago

Well I know from personal experience that Sweden and Germany have lots of migrants from there, as well as France and Italy of course. They tend to be official refugees in the northern countries, but there are many undocumented, and also from the East. It is also notorious that countries will shuffle undesirables to another country, e.g. sending Africans back to Italy, sending Roma anywhere else.