6 ms·

Where I live, work permits are so easy (or automatic through the virtue of being in Schengen area) to get that illegal immigration basically does not exist, so

Where I live, work permits are so easy (or automatic through the virtue of being in Schengen area) to get that illegal immigration basically does not exist, so the whole idea is vague at best to me.

learc83 7y ago
Where in the Schengen area does illegal immigration basically not exist?
- gdhbcc 7y ago
  Vatican for example
  - cco 7y ago
    Are they in the Schengen? A quick Google says no, but maybe it is somehow inherited from Italy?
    - hk__2 7y ago
      They aren’t in the Schengen area but they have open borders with Italy, which itself is in the Schengen area. Schengen or not, it doesn’t really make sense to talk about immigration in the Vatican since there’s no nationality and the Vatican can’t even issue visas.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  Czech Republic
angry_octet 7y ago
If you are in Europe, how can you not be aware of undocumented refugees from North Africa and Syria? What you are saying is completely delusional.
- martin_a 7y ago
  And how would those be identified by a facial recognition system? I don't see your point here.
  - angry_octet 7y ago
    Well, it would be technically challenging, but it's where people surveillance is going. There are several versions of the problem: 1- For face f, is f a member of F_known? (From national ID cards etc.) Assume this gives an answer [0.0 - 1.0]. 2- Is f a member of F_suspect? Where F_suspect is a database of face imagery associated with potentially illegal activity or refugee migration. Not that these faces could be from video surveillance (from a border region, train station, migrant camp) or scraped from war zone images e.g. jihadi propaganda, YouTube video of regime critics, talking politics on HN, video of protests in other countries, etc. 3- Not matching anything, and hence also requiring investigation. All of these have errors, which generally go up as more people are added to the training database. Apparently some ethnicities (okay, black people) are often trained for poorly. This will likely result in 'over-servicing' of some ethnicities. If local police get a hit for someone going through festival security and detain them on the basis of face recognition software, what is the legal basis for that? Police would say that they had 'intelligence' but can they explain the basis for it? Is this not essentially maintaining dossiers on people who have not committed any crime? They have no evidence a crime has been committed but instead they are essentially running a police checkpoint and saying "Papers!". These are the mechanisms of the Stasi. One can argue that police should be able to detain those with outstanding warrants. I have no problem with that, except that when police take photos of citizens it is hard to know what is done with those photos. Ironclad legislation requiring they not leave the device or be stored on anything except ephemeral storage would be a good start, along with civil and criminal penalties for non compliance and direct individual responsibility and penalties for the chain of command. Without a rigorous push back, America will become like China and the UK, where your face must be shown, and it will be recorded and tracked 24/7. Of course in America it will probably be via a company, and police forces will have a subscription, which lowers their fees the more faces the capture.
- derriz 7y ago
empath75 7y ago
That is not the case in the us, and moreover there are people who have lived in the us since they were babies or small children, and have families and careers or even served in the military who are still at risk of deportation to country they don’t remember and where they don’t even speak the language well or at all.

Where I live, work permits are so easy (or automatic through the virtue of being in Schengen area) to get that illegal immigration basically does not exist, so the whole idea is vague at best to me.

learc83 7y ago

Where in the Schengen area does illegal immigration basically not exist?

gdhbcc 7y ago
Vatican for example
- cco 7y ago
  Are they in the Schengen? A quick Google says no, but maybe it is somehow inherited from Italy?
  - hk__2 7y ago
    They aren’t in the Schengen area but they have open borders with Italy, which itself is in the Schengen area. Schengen or not, it doesn’t really make sense to talk about immigration in the Vatican since there’s no nationality and the Vatican can’t even issue visas.
TomMarius 7y ago
Czech Republic

angry_octet 7y ago

If you are in Europe, how can you not be aware of undocumented refugees from North Africa and Syria? What you are saying is completely delusional.

martin_a 7y ago
And how would those be identified by a facial recognition system? I don't see your point here.
- angry_octet 7y ago
  Well, it would be technically challenging, but it's where people surveillance is going. There are several versions of the problem: 1- For face f, is f a member of F_known? (From national ID cards etc.) Assume this gives an answer [0.0 - 1.0]. 2- Is f a member of F_suspect? Where F_suspect is a database of face imagery associated with potentially illegal activity or refugee migration. Not that these faces could be from video surveillance (from a border region, train station, migrant camp) or scraped from war zone images e.g. jihadi propaganda, YouTube video of regime critics, talking politics on HN, video of protests in other countries, etc. 3- Not matching anything, and hence also requiring investigation. All of these have errors, which generally go up as more people are added to the training database. Apparently some ethnicities (okay, black people) are often trained for poorly. This will likely result in 'over-servicing' of some ethnicities. If local police get a hit for someone going through festival security and detain them on the basis of face recognition software, what is the legal basis for that? Police would say that they had 'intelligence' but can they explain the basis for it? Is this not essentially maintaining dossiers on people who have not committed any crime? They have no evidence a crime has been committed but instead they are essentially running a police checkpoint and saying "Papers!". These are the mechanisms of the Stasi. One can argue that police should be able to detain those with outstanding warrants. I have no problem with that, except that when police take photos of citizens it is hard to know what is done with those photos. Ironclad legislation requiring they not leave the device or be stored on anything except ephemeral storage would be a good start, along with civil and criminal penalties for non compliance and direct individual responsibility and penalties for the chain of command. Without a rigorous push back, America will become like China and the UK, where your face must be shown, and it will be recorded and tracked 24/7. Of course in America it will probably be via a company, and police forces will have a subscription, which lowers their fees the more faces the capture.
derriz 7y ago

empath75 7y ago

That is not the case in the us, and moreover there are people who have lived in the us since they were babies or small children, and have families and careers or even served in the military who are still at risk of deportation to country they don’t remember and where they don’t even speak the language well or at all.