9 ms·

WebP is lossy though, no? The whole point of PNG is preserving the exact pixel data.

javagram 7y ago
APNG is finally supported in every browser but IE/old Edge, so that case will be fixed soon too. There’s also a lossless webp variant.
nebulous1 7y ago
webp has both lossy and lossless compression
daef 7y ago
https://flif.info https://flif.info beats lossless webm
- mceachen 7y ago
  https://caniuse.com/#search=Flif https://caniuse.com/#search=Flif is sad, tho.
chungy 7y ago
WebP has lossy and lossless modes. The latter should be considered as the PNG replacement :)
- zzo38computer 7y ago
  I think FLIF seems better as a PNG replacement. FLIF is a lossless format, although lossy encoding is also available. Still, PNG is much better than GIF, so GIF should not be used unless you need it for use with software that can't use PNG. (This kind of lossy encoding would be possible with PNG too, but most PNG encoders don't have a lossy mode.) (GIF is now patent-free, but PNG and FLIF are still better compression than GIF anyways.)
  - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
    The FLIF author's next project FUIF is now partly the basis for JPEG XL which replaces (or at least aims to replace) PNG and all the other standard web formats. Pngs get used for both for non photographic images and photographic images with alpha channel, and JPEG XL should win on both of those use cases. It also cleverly has an upgrade story forexisting JPEGs so I imagine a fairly quick uptake where a proxy can recompress an existing sites images and get better size with no recompression loss.
  - chungy 7y ago
    I like FLIF too, but it has zero browser support, whereas all Chromium and Gecko browsers support WebP. Something nice about FLIF is partial decoding. You can reasonably see a thumbnail by downloading just 5% of the full lossless file.
    - Lorin 7y ago
      FLIF needs a catchier, pronounceable file extension name.
    - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
      This feature has been carried through to his work on JPEG XL, which is co-created with Google (using their Pik and Brunsli tech) and so fairly likely to get wide browser support. In conjunction with HTTP2 to progressively load all visible images first, this is a killer feature for the web, simplifying thumbnails and responsive design while vastly speeding up page loads and improving caching.
- ahbyb 7y ago
  Is it supported at all by safari?
  - gsich 7y ago
    As Safaris usage is very low: likely not an issue.
    - ckorhonen 7y ago
      If you factor in iOS, usage is actually quite significant. Almost a accounting for almost a third of the market, making it the second most popular browser. https://www.stetic.com/market-share/browser/ https://www.stetic.com/market-share/browser/
      - gsich 7y ago
        I don't.
- lazyjeff 7y ago
  WebP should be replacing JPEG and PNG. I feel like JPEG/PNG is like the GIF of 1999, formats which can be completely replaced with no real drawbacks. The disk space and network savings alone could reduce energy consumption. Safari is the only browser without WebP support, and I don't think it makes sense to keep waiting on them. If Safari users start seeing websites with images that don't load, Apple will support WebP real quick. One thing that would be nice would be a way to tell whether a WebP is lossy (in which case you should only edit/resize the original file, to prevent degradation), or lossless (edit as much as you please).
  - biddlesby 7y ago
    It's wishful thinking that it would reduce energy consumption! If the format is more efficient people will just load more.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
      Jevons Paradox: In economics, the Jevons paradox (/ˈdʒɛvənz/; sometimes Jevons effect) occurs when technological progress or government policy increases the efficiency with which a resource is used (reducing the amount necessary for any one use), but the rate of consumption of that resource rises due to increasing demand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
  - xvilka 7y ago
    Apple users can also help by complaining[1] more. Interestingly, there is a bug[2] in Microsoft Edge which wasn't touched for months as well. [1] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250073758 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250073758 [2] https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/issues/19618851/ https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platfor...
- coribuci 7y ago
  Right. Every day a new format.

APNG is finally supported in every browser but IE/old Edge, so that case will be fixed soon too. There’s also a lossless webp variant.

nebulous1 7y ago

webp has both lossy and lossless compression

daef 7y ago

https://flif.info https://flif.info beats lossless webm

mceachen 7y ago
https://caniuse.com/#search=Flif https://caniuse.com/#search=Flif is sad, tho.

chungy 7y ago

WebP has lossy and lossless modes. The latter should be considered as the PNG replacement :)

zzo38computer 7y ago
I think FLIF seems better as a PNG replacement. FLIF is a lossless format, although lossy encoding is also available. Still, PNG is much better than GIF, so GIF should not be used unless you need it for use with software that can't use PNG. (This kind of lossy encoding would be possible with PNG too, but most PNG encoders don't have a lossy mode.) (GIF is now patent-free, but PNG and FLIF are still better compression than GIF anyways.)
- ZeroGravitas 7y ago
  The FLIF author's next project FUIF is now partly the basis for JPEG XL which replaces (or at least aims to replace) PNG and all the other standard web formats. Pngs get used for both for non photographic images and photographic images with alpha channel, and JPEG XL should win on both of those use cases. It also cleverly has an upgrade story forexisting JPEGs so I imagine a fairly quick uptake where a proxy can recompress an existing sites images and get better size with no recompression loss.
- chungy 7y ago
  I like FLIF too, but it has zero browser support, whereas all Chromium and Gecko browsers support WebP. Something nice about FLIF is partial decoding. You can reasonably see a thumbnail by downloading just 5% of the full lossless file.
  - Lorin 7y ago
    FLIF needs a catchier, pronounceable file extension name.
  - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
    This feature has been carried through to his work on JPEG XL, which is co-created with Google (using their Pik and Brunsli tech) and so fairly likely to get wide browser support. In conjunction with HTTP2 to progressively load all visible images first, this is a killer feature for the web, simplifying thumbnails and responsive design while vastly speeding up page loads and improving caching.
ahbyb 7y ago
Is it supported at all by safari?
- gsich 7y ago
  As Safaris usage is very low: likely not an issue.
  - ckorhonen 7y ago
    If you factor in iOS, usage is actually quite significant. Almost a accounting for almost a third of the market, making it the second most popular browser. https://www.stetic.com/market-share/browser/ https://www.stetic.com/market-share/browser/
    - gsich 7y ago
      I don't.
lazyjeff 7y ago
WebP should be replacing JPEG and PNG. I feel like JPEG/PNG is like the GIF of 1999, formats which can be completely replaced with no real drawbacks. The disk space and network savings alone could reduce energy consumption. Safari is the only browser without WebP support, and I don't think it makes sense to keep waiting on them. If Safari users start seeing websites with images that don't load, Apple will support WebP real quick. One thing that would be nice would be a way to tell whether a WebP is lossy (in which case you should only edit/resize the original file, to prevent degradation), or lossless (edit as much as you please).
- biddlesby 7y ago
  It's wishful thinking that it would reduce energy consumption! If the format is more efficient people will just load more.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    Jevons Paradox: In economics, the Jevons paradox (/ˈdʒɛvənz/; sometimes Jevons effect) occurs when technological progress or government policy increases the efficiency with which a resource is used (reducing the amount necessary for any one use), but the rate of consumption of that resource rises due to increasing demand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
- xvilka 7y ago
  Apple users can also help by complaining[1] more. Interestingly, there is a bug[2] in Microsoft Edge which wasn't touched for months as well. [1] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250073758 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250073758 [2] https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/issues/19618851/ https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platfor...
coribuci 7y ago
Right. Every day a new format.