6 ms·

First they came for the socialists. Buddy please read the damn poem. It was about "modern society" purging itself of the kind of people you are criticizing.

all2 7y ago
I think you've missed my point. The quote isn't relevant from a "the socialists will be the first to go" perspective. Its relevant from a "the ideologies that fuel revolution will be the first to go". Also, I'm not seeking to criticize anyone. My goal is to point out that revolution is ugly business that often (not always) eats its own.
- yorwba 7y ago
  The poem really doesn't work from a "the revolution eats its own" perspective. It's about Nazis getting rid of their political enemies, not about revolutionaries purging their own ranks.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    > "It's about Nazis getting rid of their political enemies, not about revolutionaries purging their own ranks." "Revolutionary" is a word I would reserve for people I agree with, but it should be noted that the Nazis purged their own ranks. "Political enemies" and "their own ranks" are not even remotely mutually exclusive. Rather, the later is a subset of the former. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives (Note also that poet in question was originally a Nazi, until he realized he'd be targeted by them too.)
    - yorwba 7y ago
      Yes, the Nazis also purged their own ranks, but the groups listed were all external political enemies. If the poem were worded in the first person as "First we came for ...", it would serve better to illustrate your own group turning against you rather than it being some third party you don't dare speak out against.
      - all2 7y ago
        Nazi == National Socialist German Workers' Party So... why would a socialist party first target socialists? The people who started the thing are the ones getting targeted.
      - colejohnson66 7y ago
        I can’t reply to the dead post, so I’m commenting here: I see this confusion a lot, and I don’t understand it. North Korea is the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, and its clearly not democratic. China claims to be communist when they’re not.
        all2 7y ago
        I think that's part of the point, though. People get sold on an ideology; enough so that they revolt. But those who begin the revolution are fodder for the machine as it progresses. The socialist party in Germany began with socialists. Then, when Hitler and Co. had concentrated enough power, their original constituents became liabilities and thus political enemies. [edit] I'm curious to know if the downvotes are because I'm not adding anything substantive? Or if they are happening because someone disagrees with what I am saying? Am I incorrect in my assertions? [/edit]
        yorwba 7y ago
        The big Socialist party in Germany at the time (SPD) never had any relation to Hitler at all. They founded a paramilitary organization to fight both Nazis and Communists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Front https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Front I think you're overthinking the "Socialist" in the NSDAP's name. Their ideas weren't exactly compatible with mainstream Socialism.
        jakeogh 7y ago
        other examples of socalisim also ended in large body counts, the "doing it wrong" excuse misses the lack of a positive feedback loop in the system.
- danharaj 7y ago
  A poem about counter-revolutionary state repression leading to genocide was warning you about... revolutionaries. Got it.
- roenxi 7y ago
  One of the most 'successful' revolutions I know of is the French Revolution and from what little I know it was a good example of what you are talking about. Three choice quotes near each other Robespierre's Wikipedia page: * In July he was appointed as a member of the powerful Committee of Public Safety. * Robespierre is best known for his role during the "reign of Terror" * Robespierre was eventually brought down by his obsession with the vision of an ideal republic and his indifference to the human costs of installing it. The Terror ended with Robespierre's arrest on 9 Thermidor and his execution on the day after. As a rule, revolutionaries are simply not the sort of people who are best left in charge.

all2 7y ago

I think you've missed my point. The quote isn't relevant from a "the socialists will be the first to go" perspective. Its relevant from a "the ideologies that fuel revolution will be the first to go". Also, I'm not seeking to criticize anyone. My goal is to point out that revolution is ugly business that often (not always) eats its own.

yorwba 7y ago
The poem really doesn't work from a "the revolution eats its own" perspective. It's about Nazis getting rid of their political enemies, not about revolutionaries purging their own ranks.
- catalogia 7y ago
  > "It's about Nazis getting rid of their political enemies, not about revolutionaries purging their own ranks." "Revolutionary" is a word I would reserve for people I agree with, but it should be noted that the Nazis purged their own ranks. "Political enemies" and "their own ranks" are not even remotely mutually exclusive. Rather, the later is a subset of the former. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives (Note also that poet in question was originally a Nazi, until he realized he'd be targeted by them too.)
  - yorwba 7y ago
    Yes, the Nazis also purged their own ranks, but the groups listed were all external political enemies. If the poem were worded in the first person as "First we came for ...", it would serve better to illustrate your own group turning against you rather than it being some third party you don't dare speak out against.
    - all2 7y ago
      Nazi == National Socialist German Workers' Party So... why would a socialist party first target socialists? The people who started the thing are the ones getting targeted.
    - colejohnson66 7y ago
      I can’t reply to the dead post, so I’m commenting here: I see this confusion a lot, and I don’t understand it. North Korea is the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, and its clearly not democratic. China claims to be communist when they’re not.
      - all2 7y ago
        I think that's part of the point, though. People get sold on an ideology; enough so that they revolt. But those who begin the revolution are fodder for the machine as it progresses. The socialist party in Germany began with socialists. Then, when Hitler and Co. had concentrated enough power, their original constituents became liabilities and thus political enemies. [edit] I'm curious to know if the downvotes are because I'm not adding anything substantive? Or if they are happening because someone disagrees with what I am saying? Am I incorrect in my assertions? [/edit]
        yorwba 7y ago
        The big Socialist party in Germany at the time (SPD) never had any relation to Hitler at all. They founded a paramilitary organization to fight both Nazis and Communists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Front https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Front I think you're overthinking the "Socialist" in the NSDAP's name. Their ideas weren't exactly compatible with mainstream Socialism.
        jakeogh 7y ago
        other examples of socalisim also ended in large body counts, the "doing it wrong" excuse misses the lack of a positive feedback loop in the system.
danharaj 7y ago
A poem about counter-revolutionary state repression leading to genocide was warning you about... revolutionaries. Got it.
roenxi 7y ago
One of the most 'successful' revolutions I know of is the French Revolution and from what little I know it was a good example of what you are talking about. Three choice quotes near each other Robespierre's Wikipedia page: * In July he was appointed as a member of the powerful Committee of Public Safety. * Robespierre is best known for his role during the "reign of Terror" * Robespierre was eventually brought down by his obsession with the vision of an ideal republic and his indifference to the human costs of installing it. The Terror ended with Robespierre's arrest on 9 Thermidor and his execution on the day after. As a rule, revolutionaries are simply not the sort of people who are best left in charge.