4 ms·

I really can't upvote this enough. I've experienced both sides of this as a transgender woman. As a relatively effeminate man, I failed to fit in with the cult

I really can't upvote this enough. I've experienced both sides of this as a transgender woman. As a relatively effeminate man, I failed to fit in with the culture of "cocksure masculinity" as the OP calls it. But as a woman it's a whole lot worse. The problem has the same cause and hits both genders, but it really does hit women harder. For instance, men might find they need to shout to get their voice heard because 'that's the culture', while women might get admonished even when they do that because it doesn't fit the gendered expectations of them. As an effeminate geeky dude, I had employers tell me I needed to step up and take more of a leadership role. As a woman, I've had interview candidates assume I couldn't be an engineer because of the way I dress. I had a boss who treated me more junior the more feminine I was dressed. It's way worse. The toxic boys club culture can totally make life hard for men who aren't like that - but it can be almost impossible for women. The hill is just that much harder to climb, in part because performing those behaviors that would make you fit in with the boys club can get you slammed for not being feminine. It's important to remember that this isn't just about men and women, that it does negatively impact men as well - but it hits women a lot harder. Voices that don't match get ignored in that culture, but if you're a man it's much easier to make your voice sound like what the leadership expects.

robocat 7y ago
The best example of objective evidence for this I have seen is: https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/money/96443300/the-names-the-thing-for-getting-work-done--especially-if-its-keith https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/money/96443300/the-names-the-... Where a male and female colleague swapped names in all correspondence, and she (with a temporary male name) was astounded at how easy work was, while he (with a temporary female name) was perplexed by how much harder his job became. And I'm guessing you have seen: http://www.econ.nyu.edu/user/wiswall/research/schilt_wiswall_transsexual.pdf http://www.econ.nyu.edu/user/wiswall/research/schilt_wiswall... "In 2006 American economists Kristen and Matthew Wiswall performed perhaps the ultimate test. They examined what happened to the pay of and status of employees who'd changed sex."
- JimboOmega 7y ago
  I hadn't seen that study before, and I have a lot of thoughts on it. Most of all I'd be interested to see how it changed. (For one thing, the term "transsexual" now is feels so dated it's borderline offensive) To briefly sum up a very complex issue on which I have a lot of feelings, I find that it's more common for transfeminine people (vs. transmasculine ones) to wind up in a kind of "uncanny valley" of gender that some people struggle and are uncomfortable with. I think that with growing visibility and acceptance this is probably improving, but it's still very real. I think a result of that is that comparing MTF vs. FTM people is that it's not a good comparison of women vs. men in the workplace. The fact that society has a much more negative view of transwomen confounds the entire thing. There's also, very anecdotally, a pretty sharp divide in how more passable transwomen are treated vs. less passable transwomen. I think I'm in the former group, but it's all very complicated and not something I fully understand myself - how can I really know how others see me?
  - robocat 7y ago
    > how can I really know how others see me? I am a middle aged guy in NZ with a fairly broad social range, that includes a few MTF transsexuals§ by association. Within their social circles and far wider than that, everyone is aware that they are a transsexual, and I perceive that they often get lumped into a third category (that isn't male or female). Strangers will be completely natural towards a non-obvious transsexual (where acquantances might not), but then a stranger that becomes a friend will struggle later when they find out they have been "deceived" (which subjectively can't be argued with?). Surely that must cause a lot of friction. Also the acronym LGBT defines "different from X" where I don't know a good word for X either... Hopefully you have a good bunch of friends and family that don't judge you or stereotype you. As far as the study went, they would have to find a subgroup that worked as female (or v.v.) without anyone at work knowing or finding out (remaining cryptic at all times). Even then, there is a sampling bias for only those people that act on their feelings and have major surgery, and presumably a major emotional disruption to life for most of those. > a pretty sharp divide in how more passable transwomen are treated vs. less passable transwomen Is the divide wider than that between a "pretty" woman and an "ugly" one (sorry again, awful word choice, but I don't know how to rewrite that so the meaning stays clear). § sorry if transsexuals is an offensive term, I'm using what my peer group would use, and I have no idea how to safely use the words you use.

robocat 7y ago

The best example of objective evidence for this I have seen is: https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/money/96443300/the-names-the-thing-for-getting-work-done--especially-if-its-keith https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/money/96443300/the-names-the-... Where a male and female colleague swapped names in all correspondence, and she (with a temporary male name) was astounded at how easy work was, while he (with a temporary female name) was perplexed by how much harder his job became. And I'm guessing you have seen: http://www.econ.nyu.edu/user/wiswall/research/schilt_wiswall_transsexual.pdf http://www.econ.nyu.edu/user/wiswall/research/schilt_wiswall... "In 2006 American economists Kristen and Matthew Wiswall performed perhaps the ultimate test. They examined what happened to the pay of and status of employees who'd changed sex."

JimboOmega 7y ago
I hadn't seen that study before, and I have a lot of thoughts on it. Most of all I'd be interested to see how it changed. (For one thing, the term "transsexual" now is feels so dated it's borderline offensive) To briefly sum up a very complex issue on which I have a lot of feelings, I find that it's more common for transfeminine people (vs. transmasculine ones) to wind up in a kind of "uncanny valley" of gender that some people struggle and are uncomfortable with. I think that with growing visibility and acceptance this is probably improving, but it's still very real. I think a result of that is that comparing MTF vs. FTM people is that it's not a good comparison of women vs. men in the workplace. The fact that society has a much more negative view of transwomen confounds the entire thing. There's also, very anecdotally, a pretty sharp divide in how more passable transwomen are treated vs. less passable transwomen. I think I'm in the former group, but it's all very complicated and not something I fully understand myself - how can I really know how others see me?
- robocat 7y ago
  > how can I really know how others see me? I am a middle aged guy in NZ with a fairly broad social range, that includes a few MTF transsexuals§ by association. Within their social circles and far wider than that, everyone is aware that they are a transsexual, and I perceive that they often get lumped into a third category (that isn't male or female). Strangers will be completely natural towards a non-obvious transsexual (where acquantances might not), but then a stranger that becomes a friend will struggle later when they find out they have been "deceived" (which subjectively can't be argued with?). Surely that must cause a lot of friction. Also the acronym LGBT defines "different from X" where I don't know a good word for X either... Hopefully you have a good bunch of friends and family that don't judge you or stereotype you. As far as the study went, they would have to find a subgroup that worked as female (or v.v.) without anyone at work knowing or finding out (remaining cryptic at all times). Even then, there is a sampling bias for only those people that act on their feelings and have major surgery, and presumably a major emotional disruption to life for most of those. > a pretty sharp divide in how more passable transwomen are treated vs. less passable transwomen Is the divide wider than that between a "pretty" woman and an "ugly" one (sorry again, awful word choice, but I don't know how to rewrite that so the meaning stays clear). § sorry if transsexuals is an offensive term, I'm using what my peer group would use, and I have no idea how to safely use the words you use.