5 ms·

Why have an election if there is no intention to respect the outcome?

by kaffeemitsahne 7y ago

DaiPlusPlus 7y ago
So you don't end up with a Brexit situation on your hands.
- mavhc 7y ago
  Also a referendum that wasn't legally binding, oh well, we banned guns so had to find another way to shoot ourselves in the foot
alkonaut 7y ago
Some referendums (most?) are advisory rather than directly legally binding. The intention of the lawmaker in situations like these could be e.g “there is a huge economic gain from driving on the same side as Norway, Sweden and Denmark, but if there is a massive opposition perhaps we can’t do it.” People are also prone to prefer the status quo , something which should perhaps be accounted for in decisions that will affect people many generations into the future.
- Wildgoose 7y ago
  Denmark also drove on the Left. They switched at the same time. I was there two weeks before it happened, but I was only 15 months old at the time.
frostwhale 7y ago
All of the issues people that Direct Democracy has, or people perceive it to have. And presumably, since he said legally, there are rules they have to follow to not agree with the election. That being said, like you I am curious for more details! It does seem a little strange on the face of it.
denzil_correa 7y ago
The outcome of an election is representation in parliament - which was clearly respected. Elections aren't a popularity vote.
- thunderbong 7y ago
  That's a seriously fantastic point. I think most voters in democratic systems conflate the two and miss this in it's entirety.
BurningFrog 7y ago
Yeah, Sweden has referendums, and we do one every 1-3 decades, but they're only "advisory". Power rests 100% with parliament. You ask "why?". It's a good question. The system is hard to defend logically, but it is respected nonetheless.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  Look at the years-long Brexit saga for a good reason.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  It's naive to assume referendums are inherently more democratic. The Brexit situation is one good example why. They posed the wrong question and arrived at an answer the majority of both the voters and the parliament are already deeply unhappy with... If I wanted to grab power and rule as a dictator, I would hold referendums every month. You just wouldn't like the questions or the rules...
  - yxhuvud 7y ago
    Strictly speaking though, UK also only have advisory referendums. If parliament wanted to they could just ignore Brexit. Politically impossible even if legal, though.
    - bayesian_horse 7y ago
      The British parliament seems to be ignoring Brexit just fine, it's just that only the prime minister can stop it.
  - BurningFrog 7y ago
    > It's naive to assume referendums are inherently more democratic. I think they're more democratic, pretty much by definition. The point you're making is that they're not good.
    - bayesian_horse 7y ago
astura 7y ago
Looks like Sweden has never held a binding referendum. [1] Firstly, the goal of a non-binding referendum is to gather public opinion. Secondly, the outcome of the referendum was respected for 13 years. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Sweden# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Sweden#
jonke 7y ago
My understanding of this from older relatives was that question divided within the parties of the Parlament. This is usually solved in Sweden by postpone until every party sorts out there own standing. However, if that isn’t successful we have a advisory referendum that commits to nothing but will break some party deadlocks.

Why have an election if there is no intention to respect the outcome?

DaiPlusPlus 7y ago

So you don't end up with a Brexit situation on your hands.

mavhc 7y ago
Also a referendum that wasn't legally binding, oh well, we banned guns so had to find another way to shoot ourselves in the foot

alkonaut 7y ago

Some referendums (most?) are advisory rather than directly legally binding. The intention of the lawmaker in situations like these could be e.g “there is a huge economic gain from driving on the same side as Norway, Sweden and Denmark, but if there is a massive opposition perhaps we can’t do it.” People are also prone to prefer the status quo , something which should perhaps be accounted for in decisions that will affect people many generations into the future.

Wildgoose 7y ago
Denmark also drove on the Left. They switched at the same time. I was there two weeks before it happened, but I was only 15 months old at the time.

frostwhale 7y ago

All of the issues people that Direct Democracy has, or people perceive it to have. And presumably, since he said legally, there are rules they have to follow to not agree with the election. That being said, like you I am curious for more details! It does seem a little strange on the face of it.

denzil_correa 7y ago

The outcome of an election is representation in parliament - which was clearly respected. Elections aren't a popularity vote.

thunderbong 7y ago
That's a seriously fantastic point. I think most voters in democratic systems conflate the two and miss this in it's entirety.

BurningFrog 7y ago

Yeah, Sweden has referendums, and we do one every 1-3 decades, but they're only "advisory". Power rests 100% with parliament. You ask "why?". It's a good question. The system is hard to defend logically, but it is respected nonetheless.

umanwizard 7y ago
Look at the years-long Brexit saga for a good reason.
bayesian_horse 7y ago
It's naive to assume referendums are inherently more democratic. The Brexit situation is one good example why. They posed the wrong question and arrived at an answer the majority of both the voters and the parliament are already deeply unhappy with... If I wanted to grab power and rule as a dictator, I would hold referendums every month. You just wouldn't like the questions or the rules...
- yxhuvud 7y ago
  Strictly speaking though, UK also only have advisory referendums. If parliament wanted to they could just ignore Brexit. Politically impossible even if legal, though.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    The British parliament seems to be ignoring Brexit just fine, it's just that only the prime minister can stop it.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  > It's naive to assume referendums are inherently more democratic. I think they're more democratic, pretty much by definition. The point you're making is that they're not good.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago

astura 7y ago

Looks like Sweden has never held a binding referendum. [1] Firstly, the goal of a non-binding referendum is to gather public opinion. Secondly, the outcome of the referendum was respected for 13 years. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Sweden# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Sweden#

jonke 7y ago

My understanding of this from older relatives was that question divided within the parties of the Parlament. This is usually solved in Sweden by postpone until every party sorts out there own standing. However, if that isn’t successful we have a advisory referendum that commits to nothing but will break some party deadlocks.