7 ms·

How do you get your employer to hear you? I don't think these problems are isolated to women. I think women just don't understand that there's an "old boys club

How do you get your employer to hear you? I don't think these problems are isolated to women. I think women just don't understand that there's an "old boys club" that attacks other men too. I know lots of men who say the same things. Pitting employees against each other. The masters recruiting spies from among the ranks to report dissenting comments from the servants. Cutting back on coffee breaks. Not being allowed to report actual time worked because you're an exempt employee so your boss can say, "I'm not aware of any overtime being worked." Uh that's because you won't allow me to enter more than the minimum. This happens to more than just women. Instead of pitting one bullied group against another, bullied people need to rise up against a system that rewards bullies at the expense of the employees with integrity! Companies are losing SO much value from their greatest employees because they are afraid to be noticed. You do something great for your employer and everyone else says, "Show off." or "You're making the rest of us look bad." or "Overachiever". They force great employees to be mediocre. Even managers do the same thing. If you find a problem with your boss's code -- watch out! This is not a problem women experience. It's a problem people experience.

mieseratte 7y ago
> How do you get your employer to hear you? I don't think these problems are isolated to women. I think women just don't understand that there's an "old boys club" that attacks other men too. I know lots of men who say the same things. If anyone thinks this is a problem exclusive to men, conservatives, or whatever group it's en vogue to pillory they're flat-out ignorant. I've seen women in power be utterly despicable to their fellow woman. I've seen #woke managers belittle the pious. The real test of character is, when discussing these issues, do you assume immutable aspects are to blame or do you consider alternative realities. Maybe "those people" are bad for being "those people," maybe they just suck. Edit: The no comment downvote brigade is here, go ahead and flag me too. While you're at it, leave a comment telling me you're downvoting me because I said something about it.
- Infinitesimus 7y ago
  A lot of people do not realize this. The reality is that corporate culture has incentivized and rewarded certain behaviors (manifesting as sexism, racism, bullying, extroversion, whatever ) over and over again and people are slowly pushing back. It took a while for 'executive' to not only mean "older caucasian male in a suit". For all its thorny parts, the increase in exposure of these issues will help more employees realize the power imbalance and try to define a better and more inclusive corporate culture
- Reedx 7y ago
  No nuance and inconvenient truths allowed. https://hbr.org/2018/03/women-experience-more-incivility-at-work-especially-from-other-women https://hbr.org/2018/03/women-experience-more-incivility-at-... https://twitter.com/sehurlburt/status/1078514449432997888 https://twitter.com/sehurlburt/status/1078514449432997888 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_bee_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_bee_syndrome
pm90 7y ago
I'm sorry but you are just wrong. We can't go on our individual experience, the only way to understand women's perspective is to listen to what they're saying and how they're treated. The past few years has made it pretty clear (although there were certainly reports even before then) that women have faced, and continue to face abuse and discrimination to a degree that men don't. What you're saying sounds to me like the "All lives matter!" response to the "Black lives matter" movement.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  So... uncritically take everything someone says at face value and ignore possible alternative explanations, assuming the worst about the person being discussed that isn't there to defend themselves or otherwise offer any possible context? Sounds like a poor recipe for civic cohesion.
- chance_state 7y ago
  >I'm sorry but you are just wrong. >The past few years has made it pretty clear (although there were certainly reports even before then) that women have faced, and continue to face abuse and discrimination to a degree that men don't. Do you have anything to add besides "you are wrong" and (paraphrasing) "women are right"? The point GP makes about an old boys club that attacks men and women equally rings painfully true to me also.
  - pm90 7y ago
    > The point GP makes about an old boys club that attacks men and women equally rings painfully true to me also. He's just saying shit. I can make one story up, but I don't need to. Making up stories that seem likely doesn't make them true, even if you feel that they're right.
    - chance_state 7y ago
      >Making up stories that seem likely doesn't make them true, even if you feel that they're right. Ironic.
Kapura 7y ago
I understand that you want to unite workers in solidarity (which I think is a good thing!) but I'm not sure if you're hearing that men and women experience issues with bad bosses in very different ways, and the channels through which they can respond are also divergent. The author of the original post believes that MS under Nadella is starting to turn itself around, but he was rebuffed by the people who would know best who have told him that the entrenched culture of sexism hasn't made as much progress as one would hope. And then the comment you have responded to calls out that quote as especially true. Your response is to invalidate their experiences by claiming that hey, everybody is going through some stuff. But if you cannot recognise that maybe some less-privileged groups have it worse in some ways, you will find it difficult to find allies among them.
- JimboOmega 7y ago
  I really can't upvote this enough. I've experienced both sides of this as a transgender woman. As a relatively effeminate man, I failed to fit in with the culture of "cocksure masculinity" as the OP calls it. But as a woman it's a whole lot worse. The problem has the same cause and hits both genders, but it really does hit women harder. For instance, men might find they need to shout to get their voice heard because 'that's the culture', while women might get admonished even when they do that because it doesn't fit the gendered expectations of them. As an effeminate geeky dude, I had employers tell me I needed to step up and take more of a leadership role. As a woman, I've had interview candidates assume I couldn't be an engineer because of the way I dress. I had a boss who treated me more junior the more feminine I was dressed. It's way worse. The toxic boys club culture can totally make life hard for men who aren't like that - but it can be almost impossible for women. The hill is just that much harder to climb, in part because performing those behaviors that would make you fit in with the boys club can get you slammed for not being feminine. It's important to remember that this isn't just about men and women, that it does negatively impact men as well - but it hits women a lot harder. Voices that don't match get ignored in that culture, but if you're a man it's much easier to make your voice sound like what the leadership expects.
  - robocat 7y ago
bryanlarsen 7y ago
Almost everybody experiences bullying at some point in their life. That makes them feel they understand the problem. But it's the dose that makes the poison. Some people and groups are at the receiving end of so much of it that to say "we all have been bullied" really belittles what the targeted groups receive.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  > of so much of it ... but how do you know? How could anybody know that?
  - bryanlarsen 7y ago
    By listening
  - cbhl 7y ago
    Believe it or not, on gender, it is actually possible for most of us (men) to verify this empirically. As a cis male, one way to do this is to represent yourself as female, and see how much more you get questioned. You don't have to go so far as to cross-dress -- you could simply sign an email with a majority-female name in the signature.
    - FakeComments 7y ago
      My experience of presenting as female online in video games is I got a lot more attention, help, and outright handouts. I want to see an actual study, because my anecdata doesn’t match the claimed experience.
      - inetknght 7y ago
        You don't think that getting more attention, help, and outright handouts isn't its own form of bullying? You don't think it hints at an ever-more underlying reason behind the attention, help, and handouts?
DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
> How do you get your employer to hear you? At the risk of sounding flip, I'd say a lawsuit generally works.
- mkr-hn 7y ago
  Then they're the person who sued their last employer.

mieseratte 7y ago

> How do you get your employer to hear you? I don't think these problems are isolated to women. I think women just don't understand that there's an "old boys club" that attacks other men too. I know lots of men who say the same things. If anyone thinks this is a problem exclusive to men, conservatives, or whatever group it's en vogue to pillory they're flat-out ignorant. I've seen women in power be utterly despicable to their fellow woman. I've seen #woke managers belittle the pious. The real test of character is, when discussing these issues, do you assume immutable aspects are to blame or do you consider alternative realities. Maybe "those people" are bad for being "those people," maybe they just suck. Edit: The no comment downvote brigade is here, go ahead and flag me too. While you're at it, leave a comment telling me you're downvoting me because I said something about it.

Infinitesimus 7y ago
A lot of people do not realize this. The reality is that corporate culture has incentivized and rewarded certain behaviors (manifesting as sexism, racism, bullying, extroversion, whatever ) over and over again and people are slowly pushing back. It took a while for 'executive' to not only mean "older caucasian male in a suit". For all its thorny parts, the increase in exposure of these issues will help more employees realize the power imbalance and try to define a better and more inclusive corporate culture
Reedx 7y ago
No nuance and inconvenient truths allowed. https://hbr.org/2018/03/women-experience-more-incivility-at-work-especially-from-other-women https://hbr.org/2018/03/women-experience-more-incivility-at-... https://twitter.com/sehurlburt/status/1078514449432997888 https://twitter.com/sehurlburt/status/1078514449432997888 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_bee_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_bee_syndrome

pm90 7y ago

I'm sorry but you are just wrong. We can't go on our individual experience, the only way to understand women's perspective is to listen to what they're saying and how they're treated. The past few years has made it pretty clear (although there were certainly reports even before then) that women have faced, and continue to face abuse and discrimination to a degree that men don't. What you're saying sounds to me like the "All lives matter!" response to the "Black lives matter" movement.

mieseratte 7y ago
So... uncritically take everything someone says at face value and ignore possible alternative explanations, assuming the worst about the person being discussed that isn't there to defend themselves or otherwise offer any possible context? Sounds like a poor recipe for civic cohesion.
chance_state 7y ago
>I'm sorry but you are just wrong. >The past few years has made it pretty clear (although there were certainly reports even before then) that women have faced, and continue to face abuse and discrimination to a degree that men don't. Do you have anything to add besides "you are wrong" and (paraphrasing) "women are right"? The point GP makes about an old boys club that attacks men and women equally rings painfully true to me also.
- pm90 7y ago
  > The point GP makes about an old boys club that attacks men and women equally rings painfully true to me also. He's just saying shit. I can make one story up, but I don't need to. Making up stories that seem likely doesn't make them true, even if you feel that they're right.
  - chance_state 7y ago
    >Making up stories that seem likely doesn't make them true, even if you feel that they're right. Ironic.

Kapura 7y ago

I understand that you want to unite workers in solidarity (which I think is a good thing!) but I'm not sure if you're hearing that men and women experience issues with bad bosses in very different ways, and the channels through which they can respond are also divergent. The author of the original post believes that MS under Nadella is starting to turn itself around, but he was rebuffed by the people who would know best who have told him that the entrenched culture of sexism hasn't made as much progress as one would hope. And then the comment you have responded to calls out that quote as especially true. Your response is to invalidate their experiences by claiming that hey, everybody is going through some stuff. But if you cannot recognise that maybe some less-privileged groups have it worse in some ways, you will find it difficult to find allies among them.

JimboOmega 7y ago
I really can't upvote this enough. I've experienced both sides of this as a transgender woman. As a relatively effeminate man, I failed to fit in with the culture of "cocksure masculinity" as the OP calls it. But as a woman it's a whole lot worse. The problem has the same cause and hits both genders, but it really does hit women harder. For instance, men might find they need to shout to get their voice heard because 'that's the culture', while women might get admonished even when they do that because it doesn't fit the gendered expectations of them. As an effeminate geeky dude, I had employers tell me I needed to step up and take more of a leadership role. As a woman, I've had interview candidates assume I couldn't be an engineer because of the way I dress. I had a boss who treated me more junior the more feminine I was dressed. It's way worse. The toxic boys club culture can totally make life hard for men who aren't like that - but it can be almost impossible for women. The hill is just that much harder to climb, in part because performing those behaviors that would make you fit in with the boys club can get you slammed for not being feminine. It's important to remember that this isn't just about men and women, that it does negatively impact men as well - but it hits women a lot harder. Voices that don't match get ignored in that culture, but if you're a man it's much easier to make your voice sound like what the leadership expects.
- robocat 7y ago

bryanlarsen 7y ago

Almost everybody experiences bullying at some point in their life. That makes them feel they understand the problem. But it's the dose that makes the poison. Some people and groups are at the receiving end of so much of it that to say "we all have been bullied" really belittles what the targeted groups receive.

commandlinefan 7y ago
> of so much of it ... but how do you know? How could anybody know that?
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  By listening
- cbhl 7y ago
  Believe it or not, on gender, it is actually possible for most of us (men) to verify this empirically. As a cis male, one way to do this is to represent yourself as female, and see how much more you get questioned. You don't have to go so far as to cross-dress -- you could simply sign an email with a majority-female name in the signature.
  - FakeComments 7y ago
    My experience of presenting as female online in video games is I got a lot more attention, help, and outright handouts. I want to see an actual study, because my anecdata doesn’t match the claimed experience.
    - inetknght 7y ago
      You don't think that getting more attention, help, and outright handouts isn't its own form of bullying? You don't think it hints at an ever-more underlying reason behind the attention, help, and handouts?

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago

> How do you get your employer to hear you? At the risk of sounding flip, I'd say a lawsuit generally works.

mkr-hn 7y ago
Then they're the person who sued their last employer.