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Apps vs the Web isn't a new debate. Some thing apps are merely a stepping stone and the Web will be everything in the future. A bit like how 5-10 years ago, Fl

by cletus 16y ago

Apps vs the Web isn't a new debate. Some thing apps are merely a stepping stone and the Web will be everything in the future. A bit like how 5-10 years ago, Flash was the only way to do "rich" Web apps whereas now most things Flash can do, HTML/JS can now do. The problem with apps isn't really about payment though. I have a paid NYC subway app and quite happily paid for it. I'd prefer to do that than have some micropayments system where really I had no idea how much it was going to cost. It's a bit like how phone calls from land lines, unless they're international, aren't charged on a per-call or per-minute basis (in the US, YMMV elsewhere). The situation is analagous to micropayments IMHO. People generally prefer flat cost models for simplicity, even when it means they pay more than they would had they paid for each call. But that's a function of risk. You pay insurance on your house even though the expected value of all your insurance payments is you're worse off than had you self-insured: you're transferring that risk to a third party. Also, micro-payments (and this includes charging per phone call) has another cost: the cost of billing actually becomes significant. So the phone provider prefer a flat rate rather than keeping track of and billing you for all those calls. Anyway, back to apps. Some people don't like apps because they're balkanized. If you write an app you need to write an iOS version, a version for Android, a version for Blackberry and so on. It's a valid point but one I think will sort itself out in time as such platforms inevitably become commoditized. What you have to remember is that most people aren't tech-savvy. So give a person and tell them you click on this icon and it gives you a subway map and the times and they understand that. Tell them to go to a Web page and it's a whole lot harder. Yes you can bookmark a page on the home screen but that experience isn't yet as good. Web apps generally don't work offline (which is a bit of a problem in our subway example). Web pages vary greatly in their mobile user experience, both in terms of display/layout and in terms of remembering what the user was doing as you switch apps (which is an issue on mobile but not on a laptop/desktop). Lastly, games I see as being apps for a very long time to come. Sure computing power is increasing but power on mobile is an issue so the pressure will simply be to reduce power consumption rather than increasing CPU power, making the viability of HTML/JS for something like Angry Birds just that much further in the future. The fact is though you don't need to buy apps for pretty much anything. There are lots of free apps and free Web pages. I can navigate around NYC using Google Maps if I want to but I like my paid NYC subway map.

nkurz 16y ago
> It's a bit like how phone calls from land lines, unless > they're international, aren't charged on a per-call or > per-minute basis (in the US, YMMV elsewhere). It's somewhat off-topic to your main point, but I'm from the US, and I don't think this is true. While there are flat-rate calling plans, these are new and more commonly associated with VOIP lines. I think that most people in the US still have plans with very complex rates based on destination and time-of-day. For example: --- What are AT&T basic rates? What is the AT&T basic rate plan? They are the standard long distance rates charged to customers who are not enrolled in an AT&T Long Distance calling plan. There is a $4.95 monthly recurring charge associated with the state to state direct dialed basic rate plan (sometimes referred to as the basic rate plan), which applies each month whether or not a customer makes a call. The current per minute state-to-state basic rates are as follows: 42¢ Peak (7 AM - 6:59 PM, M - F), 36.5¢ Off Peak (12 AM - 6:59 AM and 7 PM - 11:59 PM, M - F) and 15¢ on Weekends. In-state basic rates vary by state. https://www.customerservice.att.com/assistance/faq/qa.jsp?faqCategoryId=ld_shop_faq https://www.customerservice.att.com/assistance/faq/qa.jsp?fa... --- Incredibly, due to federal telecommunications regulations, the in-state rates have historically been higher than the state-to-state rates. What you say is true about local calls though, where "local" is a complex term of the art rather than something simple. And times are changing --- for all I know, no one buy my family members are still on the traditional plans. With regard to apps, I think I see it opposite to the way you do. Previously, most small apps would be directly accessed as free websites with no metering. Now, more of these micro-services are moving to becoming paid apps, free-loading on top of the public web sites. Would you be comfortable with the NYC metro deciding not to put up a public information site at all, and offering only a paid app? I worry this the direction things are headed.
- cletus 16y ago
  Ok, thanks for that. Perhaps my perception is clouded in this regard. I've only lived in the US for a few months (in NYC). I'm from Australia. Whenever I've seen phone plans they're part of cable plans (eg Time Warner) and the package options are either without phone or with ($30/month, unlimited nationwide). I was also in the US in the 90s and saw the same thing then. In Australia the move has been to cap plans, particularly for mobile. So you'll pay, say, $49/month for your phone and can use $400/month of credit on voice, SMS and data (actually a lot don't include data). Voice might be $0.50/minute, SMS 10c, data $100/GB, which may sound a lot but remember you're paying $49 for that notional $400. Why do they do this? Because customers like knowing that most of the time they pay $49/month and because if you go over your bill can quickly go up. So it's really a tax on the stupid. My nephew for example has had bills of hundreds in a month when in fact a $150 cap would be more than anyone could ever really use.

by cletus 16y ago

nkurz 16y ago

> It's a bit like how phone calls from land lines, unless > they're international, aren't charged on a per-call or > per-minute basis (in the US, YMMV elsewhere). It's somewhat off-topic to your main point, but I'm from the US, and I don't think this is true. While there are flat-rate calling plans, these are new and more commonly associated with VOIP lines. I think that most people in the US still have plans with very complex rates based on destination and time-of-day. For example: --- What are AT&T basic rates? What is the AT&T basic rate plan? They are the standard long distance rates charged to customers who are not enrolled in an AT&T Long Distance calling plan. There is a $4.95 monthly recurring charge associated with the state to state direct dialed basic rate plan (sometimes referred to as the basic rate plan), which applies each month whether or not a customer makes a call. The current per minute state-to-state basic rates are as follows: 42¢ Peak (7 AM - 6:59 PM, M - F), 36.5¢ Off Peak (12 AM - 6:59 AM and 7 PM - 11:59 PM, M - F) and 15¢ on Weekends. In-state basic rates vary by state. https://www.customerservice.att.com/assistance/faq/qa.jsp?faqCategoryId=ld_shop_faq https://www.customerservice.att.com/assistance/faq/qa.jsp?fa... --- Incredibly, due to federal telecommunications regulations, the in-state rates have historically been higher than the state-to-state rates. What you say is true about local calls though, where "local" is a complex term of the art rather than something simple. And times are changing --- for all I know, no one buy my family members are still on the traditional plans. With regard to apps, I think I see it opposite to the way you do. Previously, most small apps would be directly accessed as free websites with no metering. Now, more of these micro-services are moving to becoming paid apps, free-loading on top of the public web sites. Would you be comfortable with the NYC metro deciding not to put up a public information site at all, and offering only a paid app? I worry this the direction things are headed.

cletus 16y ago
Ok, thanks for that. Perhaps my perception is clouded in this regard. I've only lived in the US for a few months (in NYC). I'm from Australia. Whenever I've seen phone plans they're part of cable plans (eg Time Warner) and the package options are either without phone or with ($30/month, unlimited nationwide). I was also in the US in the 90s and saw the same thing then. In Australia the move has been to cap plans, particularly for mobile. So you'll pay, say, $49/month for your phone and can use $400/month of credit on voice, SMS and data (actually a lot don't include data). Voice might be $0.50/minute, SMS 10c, data $100/GB, which may sound a lot but remember you're paying $49 for that notional $400. Why do they do this? Because customers like knowing that most of the time they pay $49/month and because if you go over your bill can quickly go up. So it's really a tax on the stupid. My nephew for example has had bills of hundreds in a month when in fact a $150 cap would be more than anyone could ever really use.