5 ms·

The negative reactions here claiming that everyone should use English are really disappointing, on hacker news of all places. Nobody is saying we need to rewrit

The negative reactions here claiming that everyone should use English are really disappointing, on hacker news of all places. Nobody is saying we need to rewrite the Linux kernel in Arabic. But a language such as this could be a great tool to introduce programming to people who would otherwise be turned away by the language barrier. What is important is not the keywords for, if else, etc but the concepts of logic and computing. The more humans that can grasp these concepts, the better for all of us. Also who knows what genius lies untapped. Perhaps the next Linus or Knuth will come the streets of Baghdad, as a result of having been introduced into programming by an effort such as this one.

jacquesm 7y ago
I'm wondering how many people would be outright afraid of installing and running a program in a language that they have no chance of reading. This is the rough equivalent that all non-programmers have to deal with everyday.
- tuukkah 7y ago
  At least not those people who install proprietary software on their systems. Also, non-ASCII or non-Latin is just a step on a continuum: obfuscated code, machine language, spaghetti code, non-documented code... Actually, it may be perfectly workable to run the Arabic code through Google Translate and understand the result.
- everlastingfan 7y ago
  Right. So about your bank, you're sure none of the owners speak Hebrew? What I'm saying is, is that your head is up your ass if you believe bits on a computer are more significant than the words we speak. By proxy and according to my measurements, human language is a larger factor than programming language. Re.: antisemitism: Jews are pretty good. Plenty of groupings I like less. I know Hebrew should be all over the place according to your (exoteric) religion so as a Dutchman I'll hold you to your word. Produce that Moshiach already?
  - dang 7y ago
    Not sure what this is supposed to mean but please keep flamebait off HN. Antisemitic provocation certainly is that.
    - everlastingfan 7y ago
      Please don't lecture me on antisemitism because my post went over your head. You're both wrong and obscuring the fact that Hebrew truly is a language conducive to accountancy and banking. That being widely known (+ the availability of language learning resources) is an antidote to antisemitism. As a matter of fact, the flagging of my post and your comment are both manifestations of antisemitism. It's not "racist" or "immoral" or "divisive" to note that different languages have different properties. To claim otherwise is harmful at best, and evil at worst. This reaction is exactly why I added the footnote. I truly dislike most people. Jews are better than average in my eyes. I've supported Israel in the past, and it's still a country I'd like to visit some day. Leave me alone with your politics. I don't give a shit about what groups of smelly meatsacks you want to attack or defend.
alienallys 7y ago
For a long-term perspective, all world should converge on one medium of exchange and everyone must learn that. I'm not suggesting an English hegemony here. We need to avoid balkanization. Arabic language has subsumed many local languages to be dominant in that part of world. A Bedouin feels a cultural bias towards Arabia if he starts coding in this language. I'm from India and non-Hindi speaker; if coding is done in Hindi it's cultural bias towards Northern India as opposed to where I'm from.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Is there a programming language that uses Esperanto?
  - munmaek 7y ago
    No, but programming languages exist in English, which is used by more than 15 people. Esperanto is a very interesting language but it will never be more than a plaything, a linguistic experiment, or a framework for people to learn a language that actually gets spoken by people.
barce 7y ago
It's possible but all the tools, the author of the language notes, have a 50 year head start in English with English language assumptions baked in, e.g. reading left to right vs right to left. What Qlb shows me is how hardcoded ASCII is in hardware and software.
koheripbal 7y ago
I think any argument taken to an extreme loses rationality. On one hand, if more people can understand programming, then we increase the pool of programmers, and that's great. On the other hand, if more people can understand each other's programming, that's also great. At the end of the day, what matters is that we have the largest possible ecosystem that also allows developers to transcend their geographical / ethnic background. ...and if that's the goal, then maybe it makes most sense for us to favor a unified ascii char set? A few language keywords aren't that big of a price for us all to stay on the same page.
watersb 7y ago
Thank you. Exactly. A world of seven billion people, many opportunities for genius. I have been surprised that non-English programming languages have not become even more common. In my father's time, a university student of engineering or chemistry was strongly encouraged to learn basic German, in order to keep up with the state of art as published in leading professional journals. Maths students would still do well to learn to read Russian. English need not be forever.
neop1x 7y ago
English unite. Finally, after failed attempts with Esperanto and others, lots of educated people understand this single common language. Life is much easier. I am Czech and there are so little info in Czech on any technical subject so I rather search info straight in English. What I hate about Europe are these language barriers. There are so many countries with different languages, it is annoying that one is expected to talk differently after driving just 100 km. German, Polish, Slovak, Italian, Spanish, ...argh. This single language is a big advantage of USA! They will understand you in Miami, as they will in North Dakota or California. Very cool!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- doomjunky 7y ago
  I totally agree. Let me say this. Europe has had at least three chances for a united language. 1) Latin when Caesar conquered europe. Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Romania, adopted that language but later diverged, 2) frensh when Napoleon conquered europe and 3) german when Hitler conquered europe. I hope the EU will implement english a an official language even if the only english country (UK) will leave.
- reirob 7y ago
  I agree with you. But I would phrase it differently: "A common language unites". We should not forget that at different times in different areas we had and to some extent still have different common languages (Greek, Latin, French, Arabic, Spanish). It seems that humans have such a strong desire to communicate across borders (cultural, inherited, political, etc.) that they will invent the necessary tools. English language is such a tool now. I wouldn't be surprised if in future it will be some other language. In the end, there will maybe one such common language accepted by all.
badrabbit 7y ago
I agree,that being said I think everyone agrees languages with good internationalization support (as in built to support translation of source code to a different language without affecting the logic and machine/byte code generated). Power to anyone making a language in their native tongue. I wonder if dying languages can be kept alive longer this way.

jacquesm 7y ago

I'm wondering how many people would be outright afraid of installing and running a program in a language that they have no chance of reading. This is the rough equivalent that all non-programmers have to deal with everyday.

tuukkah 7y ago
At least not those people who install proprietary software on their systems. Also, non-ASCII or non-Latin is just a step on a continuum: obfuscated code, machine language, spaghetti code, non-documented code... Actually, it may be perfectly workable to run the Arabic code through Google Translate and understand the result.
everlastingfan 7y ago
Right. So about your bank, you're sure none of the owners speak Hebrew? What I'm saying is, is that your head is up your ass if you believe bits on a computer are more significant than the words we speak. By proxy and according to my measurements, human language is a larger factor than programming language. Re.: antisemitism: Jews are pretty good. Plenty of groupings I like less. I know Hebrew should be all over the place according to your (exoteric) religion so as a Dutchman I'll hold you to your word. Produce that Moshiach already?
- dang 7y ago
  Not sure what this is supposed to mean but please keep flamebait off HN. Antisemitic provocation certainly is that.
  - everlastingfan 7y ago
    Please don't lecture me on antisemitism because my post went over your head. You're both wrong and obscuring the fact that Hebrew truly is a language conducive to accountancy and banking. That being widely known (+ the availability of language learning resources) is an antidote to antisemitism. As a matter of fact, the flagging of my post and your comment are both manifestations of antisemitism. It's not "racist" or "immoral" or "divisive" to note that different languages have different properties. To claim otherwise is harmful at best, and evil at worst. This reaction is exactly why I added the footnote. I truly dislike most people. Jews are better than average in my eyes. I've supported Israel in the past, and it's still a country I'd like to visit some day. Leave me alone with your politics. I don't give a shit about what groups of smelly meatsacks you want to attack or defend.

alienallys 7y ago

For a long-term perspective, all world should converge on one medium of exchange and everyone must learn that. I'm not suggesting an English hegemony here. We need to avoid balkanization. Arabic language has subsumed many local languages to be dominant in that part of world. A Bedouin feels a cultural bias towards Arabia if he starts coding in this language. I'm from India and non-Hindi speaker; if coding is done in Hindi it's cultural bias towards Northern India as opposed to where I'm from.

reaperducer 7y ago
Is there a programming language that uses Esperanto?
- munmaek 7y ago
  No, but programming languages exist in English, which is used by more than 15 people. Esperanto is a very interesting language but it will never be more than a plaything, a linguistic experiment, or a framework for people to learn a language that actually gets spoken by people.

barce 7y ago

It's possible but all the tools, the author of the language notes, have a 50 year head start in English with English language assumptions baked in, e.g. reading left to right vs right to left. What Qlb shows me is how hardcoded ASCII is in hardware and software.

koheripbal 7y ago

I think any argument taken to an extreme loses rationality. On one hand, if more people can understand programming, then we increase the pool of programmers, and that's great. On the other hand, if more people can understand each other's programming, that's also great. At the end of the day, what matters is that we have the largest possible ecosystem that also allows developers to transcend their geographical / ethnic background. ...and if that's the goal, then maybe it makes most sense for us to favor a unified ascii char set? A few language keywords aren't that big of a price for us all to stay on the same page.

watersb 7y ago

Thank you. Exactly. A world of seven billion people, many opportunities for genius. I have been surprised that non-English programming languages have not become even more common. In my father's time, a university student of engineering or chemistry was strongly encouraged to learn basic German, in order to keep up with the state of art as published in leading professional journals. Maths students would still do well to learn to read Russian. English need not be forever.

neop1x 7y ago

English unite. Finally, after failed attempts with Esperanto and others, lots of educated people understand this single common language. Life is much easier. I am Czech and there are so little info in Czech on any technical subject so I rather search info straight in English. What I hate about Europe are these language barriers. There are so many countries with different languages, it is annoying that one is expected to talk differently after driving just 100 km. German, Polish, Slovak, Italian, Spanish, ...argh. This single language is a big advantage of USA! They will understand you in Miami, as they will in North Dakota or California. Very cool!

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
doomjunky 7y ago
I totally agree. Let me say this. Europe has had at least three chances for a united language. 1) Latin when Caesar conquered europe. Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Romania, adopted that language but later diverged, 2) frensh when Napoleon conquered europe and 3) german when Hitler conquered europe. I hope the EU will implement english a an official language even if the only english country (UK) will leave.
reirob 7y ago
I agree with you. But I would phrase it differently: "A common language unites". We should not forget that at different times in different areas we had and to some extent still have different common languages (Greek, Latin, French, Arabic, Spanish). It seems that humans have such a strong desire to communicate across borders (cultural, inherited, political, etc.) that they will invent the necessary tools. English language is such a tool now. I wouldn't be surprised if in future it will be some other language. In the end, there will maybe one such common language accepted by all.

badrabbit 7y ago

I agree,that being said I think everyone agrees languages with good internationalization support (as in built to support translation of source code to a different language without affecting the logic and machine/byte code generated). Power to anyone making a language in their native tongue. I wonder if dying languages can be kept alive longer this way.